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C123 piston and head interferance!

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Jack in OH

03-29-2006 15:32:26




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This is a total rebuild of a C123. Engine kit from Tisco with stepped head pistons. The original pistons were also stepped but they were IH which has the stepped portion off center. The tisco pistons have a lower step but it is centered on the head of the piston. After I put the head on and torqued I was going to adjust the valves but I couldn't turn the motor to TDC, the pistons hit the head. The combustion chamber cast in the head won't accomodate the new piston step on the manifold side.

I might have to do some grinding or go with a flat top piston. Tisco said they haven't seen this before and to grind the stepped area enough to clear. My machine shop guy is coming over to look at it and thinks grinding the head might work.

It is probably only about 0.040" in height. Also , this might be a high altitude head according to the engine block serial number.

Just thought I would pass this along, it might help someone else.

Jack

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CRUSADER

03-29-2006 22:00:35




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Jack in OH, 03-29-2006 15:32:26  
Hey Jack, I am not an ace mechanic, but have built a few engines. Personally, I would contact the company and tell them to send me another rebuild kit or pistons. BTDT, and found that the headache, time, problems, and customer satisfaction was not worth the problems. After the second time we went through a simular situation, we made the supplier give us another set. We ate the extra labor cost and supplier had to eat the parts cost. Just my personal opinion for what it's worth. But after going into an engine once three times at my own cost was convincing enough.

Jim

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Red Dave

03-29-2006 16:23:32




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Jack in OH, 03-29-2006 15:32:26  
Jack, I ran into the same problem just last month. On my B, I did an overhaul, but I used a Clevite kit. 3-1/8 high dome pistons, so I ended up with 123 Cubic inches too. The pistons I took out were M&W Add Power's, also 3-1/8 high dome, but the shape of the dome was just a little bit different.

When I put it together, I torqued the head and when I turned it over to set the valve lash, it stopped dead. The edge of the domes hit the step on the head in each combustion chamber. I talked it over with my local IH tractor guru and his opinion was that somebody probably planed the head sometime in the past. He said he had run into it before and his solution was to just grind out enough from each combustion chamber to clear the pistons. He reccomended that I NOT take any off the pistons because they are weight-matched and I had no way to re-weigh them accurately, so there was no way to be sure they were all the same weight.

I had a machinist take a little off the head in each combustion chamber, then put the head back on without the gasket, and put a piece of masking tape on the spot that was hitting to make it easier to see what was hitting together.


The head before machining. The pistons hit that right angle edge.

[IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/RedDave/th_CombustionChamber2.jpg[/IMG]

The pistons. They hit just on the near edge about halfway up the raised part.

[IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/RedDave/th_Piston3.jpg[/IMG]

This is the head after the machinist took a little out with a milling machine and a slight adjustment with a die grinder.

[IMG]http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b16/RedDave/th_HeadAfterMachining3.jpg[/IMG]

After enough was out, I put it back together and it has been running just fine.

I don't know if the pictures will show up or not.

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Keith-OR

03-29-2006 17:44:21




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:23:32  
Hey Dave, just copy and paste the "Tag" under your pictures...HTH

Keith & Shawn



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Red Dave

03-29-2006 16:31:07




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:23:32  
third party image

I guess I'll have to do it this way.

The head before Machining



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El Toro

03-29-2006 16:46:35




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:31:07  
Hi Dave, Those are good pictures. There's a man
in Indiana that used stepped head Clevite pistons in a Super C and has the same problem. He's a service tech at a John Deere dealership. I asked him if those pistons were directional, according to our local Clevite rep that they are. I'll send him an email to read your posting as to what your machine shop did. Hal



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Red Dave

03-29-2006 16:33:47




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:31:07  
third party image

The pistons, showing the mark where they hit the head.



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THE TRACTOR VET

03-29-2006 17:36:25




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:33:47  
Yep cheap cast pistons as the old stuff was Forged and it was amde to fit . Myself i would be callen Clevitand having a arrs hole attch on them until more people call and raise holy hello with them they will keep passen the junk out . Now the bad part of this that if you realy put that engine to work hard them cast pistons will swell big time BTDT . Now if it was me i would have taken the time to weigh each piston on a gram scale and started cutten on the head of the piston and then made them all the same weight , now this takes time but i would rather do the weighen and cutting on the piston then start grinding on a head unless i was C. C. the head .

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Red Dave

03-29-2006 16:38:00




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:33:47  
third party image

The head after machining.

You did install your pistons with the proper orientation toward the front of the engine didn't you?



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Jack in OH

03-30-2006 05:56:26




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 Re: C123 piston and head interferance! in reply to Red Dave, 03-29-2006 16:38:00  
Thanks for the info. I'm not grinding the pistons because of the weight and balance issue.

These pistons are not directional.I called Tisco with that exact question before assembly.

The machinist is coming out Friday to determine the amount of interferance, then we'll decide what to do. might just start over with different pistons.

Thanks



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