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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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super m coil problems

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super_m

03-05-2006 19:21:01




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i put a msd blaster 2 hot coil on my m.it ran fine for a while,then it started running bad and missing after a while.the resistor by the coil was smoking and hot,so i put the old sorenson 12 volt coil back on it and it runs fine.do i need a new resistor or does it not need one?it had been converted to 12 volt,but it still has the 6 volt generator as far as i know.




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John T

03-06-2006 04:58:24




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 Re: super m coil problems in reply to super_m, 03-05-2006 19:21:01  
Super, if you smoked the old Ballast Resistor you may still need a new one regardless what coil you use now. They are usually in the 0.5 to 0.85 ohms range if they are good, theres a chance it may still work if thats what it now reads.

Heres what may have happened: First, some of those co called super or hot or high voltage coils are designed for use with electronic switched ignitions (instead of mechanical points) capable of handling and switching higher coil currents with primary winding resistances lower then conventional coils which are rated for somewhere around 4 amps. THEREFORE such a hot coil may have caused more current flow through the ballast then it was designed to handle which smoked it.

Next, do you actually need a ballst for that MSD coil??? The answer depends: IFFFFF F the coil is a full 12 volt rated unit, it needs no ballast when used on a 12 volt tractor. HOWEVER if its labeled "12 volts for use with external ballast" or "6 volts" then it indeed requires the series voltage dropping (12 to 6) Ballast Resistor. ANOTHER HOWEVER if the coil is designed specifically for an electronic ignition and has low primary winding resistance,,,,, ,but youre using points instead,,,,, ,THE BALLAST would have to be of different ohms and power rating then the typical ballast and the typical ballast may burn up if the MSD coil is used.

The problem is it sounds like youre mixing and comparing apples to oranges. If you wanna use one of those super coils and be able to take advantage of what it can offer, you really need to convert to an electronic switch. An elec switch coupled up with a high energy coil produces more spark energy then the stock ignition. The use of a high energy coil alone still switched with mechanical points isnt gonna gain you all that much if anything over the stock coil PLUS you may be over currenting the points which burns them up prematurely and smoke a ballast thats designed for only 4 amps or so. Also, the voltage at which the plugs fire is a function of the plug gap distance and the medium (fuel and compression) in which it fires, therefore, given the same conditions, the hot coil is still gonna fire at the same voltage as the stock one.

Its true the high performance coils may be more efficient then a cheaper stock coil which can gain some spark energy, but using a hot coil with points just isnt that great (depending on the coils primary winding resistance and if its designed for an elec switch) as the points can burn up quickly and the firing voltage is the same although some improvement may be there due to more eficiency of coil design.

If you insist on using that coil and its actually a 6 volt coil which requires a ballast (remember if its full 12 volt rated, none is usually required and most those type coils are 12 volts) the ballast ohms should be near the same as the coils primary winding resistance which acts as a 50 50 voltage divider dropping 6 volts across the ballast leaving 6 at the coil. HOWEVER I bet thats a full 12 volt rated coil i.e. no ballast used.

Finally, I would EITHER use a stock coil if youre still using mechanical points,,,,, ,,,,, or,,,,, ,if you insist on using that coil, use an elec ignition switch OR ELSE at least confirm the coils correct voltage and get a correct sized ballast if one is actually required. Again, its ohms should match the coils ohms plus it has sufficient power rating.

ALSO the coil should be wired to match your polarity!!!!! !! as that affects its performance plus its heating. You at Pos or Neg ground???

As far as the genny and voltage, I have seen 6 volt gennys charge at 12 volts simply by using a 12 volt Voltage Regulator but thats NOT any ideal situation.

John T, retired electrical engineer in Indiana

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ChadS

03-06-2006 07:33:17




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 Re: super m coil problems in reply to John T, 03-06-2006 04:58:24  
Is the generator hooked up? If it is, did you convert it to 12 volt? Im not sure if the hot wire comes off the generator wiring somehow,, but if it does, and your putting 12 volt to a 6 volt generator,,, you may be creating a short in the wiring. But, that is if the IGN wiring is incorporated into the charging circuit, and still using a factory wiring harness. You have to cut the voltage back on the hotter coils when using points. When you dont, it overpowers the condensor and fries the point contacts. its also more prone to arc across the point gaps, and have a short in the distributor cap, causing the electricity to jump around inside the cap. Ive ran a MSD blaster 2 coil on my 460 with points, and always ran a resistor in the power wire. Never had problems with points burning up. If you run it for a while, just like it is,, let it run for abut 5 or 10 minutes, shut it off, then touch the coil. Careful!! It may be hot!! if it's hot, you need to put in a resistor. When the coils get hot, they short out, and can be dangerous and explode. You really cant get much more voltage to the plugs when using points, the condensor stops you everytime. Best to use electronic set up to get the best voltage to the plugs. Lokk at the plugs while your at it. New engines will have shavings from the rings seting in and can get in the electrodes and short out plugs. ChadS

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John T

03-06-2006 10:43:03




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 Re: super m coil problems in reply to ChadS, 03-06-2006 07:33:17  
Chad, good issues you raised. I love these good sparky chats lol. Those super coils are often (not all) designed to run at more current (then a stock coil) which an elec switch is capable of switching WITHOUT any points or condensor burn up problems. The problem is once you reduce the coil current by adding current limiting series ballast so the points n condensor can handle the switching, then you defeat much of the purpose (more current, inductance, and more stored energy) the coil was designed for and havent gained much spark gap energy. A coil is a "current device" and the more current pumped through more inductance yields more stored energy, while less current means less stored energy, so the true test is how much spark energy the supper coil provides at "reduced" current versus the stock coil at "full current". Its my guess if the stock tractor were placed on a dyno with a stock coil at full current versus a super coil at reduced current (to save points) there wouldnt be much HP gain.

NOWWWWW W once you increase compression drastically and run exotic fuels like a puller may do, then it takes much more voltage to jump the same distance spark gap and thats when a super high voltage coil and an elec switch becomes necessary PLUS can provide additional HP.

Fun discussion, take care yall

John T

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ChadS

03-06-2006 12:54:54




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 Re: super m coil problems in reply to John T, 03-06-2006 10:43:03  
I wonder if there is a difference in the condensors betweeen 6 volt and 12 volt ignitions. Maybe one holds more current than the other before overheating and the point tips burn. No, you wont find any kind of HP improvements with a coil upgrade, the stock system just wont handle the power the coils produce, let alone the stock system is not capable of holding that kind of power. Its more like running characteristic improvement that you gain. Better, and faster starting, less plug fouling, and you can feed some more fuel without flooding the cyl, cause the new setups put so much power it to the plugs. If you have ever seen the spark a MSD box with electronic igntion puts out,, my goodness, you would not wantto be anywhere near it, nor try the ol,, pull the spark plug wire off and try to see if it has spark, cause that spark will jump anywhere it catches a ground. That could go to the distributor, and short out the electronic ign,, or to the generator and burn up the regulator,, Ive seen that happen,,, the generator be working great till I try that method, then the spark shoots up to the generator,, next thing I knew was the amp guage needle was buried, and the regualtor smoked. Imagine getting shocked by it!!!! Just have to be careful when playing with these ignitions. The best 12 volt setup I use is a Accel super stock coil, with a resistor, IH points and condensor. That works well, and does increase the spark output,, not much, better than stock,, but about 10 hours later, I will be inspecting the point contacts,, just with that setup, your pushing the envelope with point contacts. You just have to know what parts can work with each other. ChadS

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