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Isocyanates

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CNKS

02-22-2006 06:42:13




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There are often posts on this forum that recommend hardeners when painting. Hardeners enhance the quality of the paint job, speed curing and increase durability. However when using hardeners a supplied air system, not just a charcoal mask is a requirement to prevent eventual lung damage and asthma attacks. Almost all the people recommending hardeners make no mention of proper protective equipment or think a charcoal mask is adequate -- it isn't. A simple Google search will likely tell you more than you want to know about the iso's (isocyanates) in hardened paint. The link is one example, there are many more. Anyone wanting to use hardeners should read as much as they can find about them before making their decision.

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Mr. Farmall

02-22-2006 20:37:51




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
Do you also need a supplied air system when working with MEK, two years ago I had to use gas tank sealer that had MEK in it and I know it is bad stuff. I have not used anymore stuff with MEK in it since.



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CNKS

02-23-2006 07:38:51




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Mr. Farmall, 02-22-2006 20:37:51  
I don't know what MEK is. Go to the manufacturers web site, if any, and look up the MSDS -- It will tell you. Or, the safety precautions on the can should say supplied air ONLY if it contains isos. If it does not contain isos, it will simply say an "approved respirator" or something like that or supplied air. There are also different charcoal masks. One for pesticides and paint may not be suitable for other hazardous chemicals.

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CNKS

02-23-2006 07:59:50




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-23-2006 07:38:51  
Brain malfunction, not uncommon. MEK = methyl ethyl ketone. Nasty stuff, don't think iso's had been invented when it came out.



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Mr. Farmall

02-23-2006 10:57:11




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-23-2006 07:59:50  
Thanks for the info, I was real carefull with that stuff I used it outside and with an ABC gasmask on. I will try not to use anything with MEK in it because I know it is nasty, said so on the gas tank sealent can.



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Charles Myers

02-22-2006 16:37:06




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
Is there such a thing as a safe hardner ?
Acrylic hardner ?



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CNKS

02-22-2006 17:02:10




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Charles Myers, 02-22-2006 16:37:06  
Basically no. The only exception I know of is that the hardeners for most (all?) epoxy primers do not contain iso's -- that doesn't do anything for your topcoat, though.



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Peabody

02-22-2006 13:36:17




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
CNKS, I don't know what we are going to do if something ever happens to you and you stop warning these knuckleheads about the dangers of Isos. As I've said in the past, after I read up on them and they scared the bajeebas out of me, I painted without using hardener. My almost three-year-old 2150 paint job looks ALMOST as good today as it did then. I sincerely doubt the hardener would have caused an appreciable difference. STAY AWAY FROM THEM WITHOUT SUPPLIED AIR!!!!

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CNKS

02-22-2006 17:21:11




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Peabody, 02-22-2006 13:36:17  
Due to my undeveloped painting skills, I don't know if my tractors look better or not. I do like the ability to correct my screw ups the next day. I am currently painting a completely disassembled 460 Hi Utility. All sorts of oddball cast and forged pieces (I have painted more than 100 separate parts so far). Painted the main chassis and engine today. Due to the weird shapes it is difficult to hold the gun at the correct distance over the individual parts, particularly when they are hanging by wires. Most of them have at least four sides that should be painted. The next day I can scuff with a scotchbrite pad and paint again.

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Elk Farmer

02-22-2006 12:24:09




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
Is it neccessary to use hardners on Cast? I'm about ready to paint my H when it warmes up here in Michigan.
Thanks
Elk Farmer



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CNKS

02-22-2006 17:10:01




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Elk Farmer, 02-22-2006 12:24:09  
Rusty is correct in that hardeners are not necessary, unless you are using a urethane paint that will not cure without it. Although the sheet metal is what you want the shine on, it helps cast also. This post is not to say hardeners are or are not necessary, all it is for is to hopefully?? discourage people who do not realize the dangers of hardeners from recommending them to unsuspecting people who do not do their homework first. Hardened paint is the only kind I use.

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RustyFarmall

02-22-2006 12:59:44




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Elk Farmer, 02-22-2006 12:24:09  
It is not necessary to use the hardener on anything. You will still get desirable results.



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jaybird2

02-22-2006 10:48:24




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
Thanks for the heads up. I've seen you desperately trying to warn people on posts for quite some time now. I haven't yet gotten to the point where I am ready to paint my first restoration (I've got two that should be ready by spring/summer when it warms up around here in MN) So my question to you is...since I know I want the qualities of a hardener on my sheet metal, and since supplied air systems are quite expensive, is it cost-beneficial to have a body shop paint my sheet metal? I would do the cast myself unless assuming that I don't necessarily need hardener on the cast portions of the tractor. I know this question should probably go into the other forum but I'm a Farmall guy!

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CNKS

02-22-2006 17:32:28




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to jaybird2, 02-22-2006 10:48:24  
I can't answer the cost-benefit thing. I suppose the sheet metal wouldn't cost much if you prepped it yourself -- provided you find someone who will do a small job (big for me) such as that. Supplied air costs about $500 more or less -- in your current situation that is $250/tractor. You will probably want to paint more, thus spreading the cost out. Once you use hardener I doubt if you will want to go back to unhardened paint. HOWEVER if you don't use hardener on the cast and do have the sheet metal done with hardener you and the body shop should use the same brand of paint both with and without hardener. If you use IH 2150 on the cast and the body shop uses PPG 71310 acrylic enamel or acrylic urethane on the sheet metal, I can about guarantee you they won't match.

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Janicholson

02-22-2006 06:56:09




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to CNKS, 02-22-2006 06:42:13  
Thank you CNKS!!!
Often the past practice becomes the mode of operation. When technology changes caution and rethinking our safety is important.
JimN



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RustyFarmall

02-22-2006 07:03:50




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 Re: Isocyanates in reply to Janicholson, 02-22-2006 06:56:09  
Yes, thank you. That stuff is dangerous and not to be treated lightly. I was exposed to similar chemicals in the factory where I used to work, the whole time I was told that there was nothing to worry about because the levels were so low that there was no need for caution. To this day I cannot tolerate acetone, super glue, or fingernail polish remover. Instant headache and nausea.



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