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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Fire Crater pistons in M

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massey 44

01-23-2006 15:58:49




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Am in the process of overhauling my 49 M and want to put the dome pistons in. It has the gasoline head will I run into piston clearance problems??




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massey 44

01-24-2006 14:59:13




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
So your saying that the regular dome pistons such as YT lists will be okay but stay away from the fire crater type???



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ChadS

01-24-2006 07:27:01




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
Firecrater pistons will hit the old gas M head!! The new style heads used on the late SM-400-450 had a extra slant casted into the compression chamber to make room for the firecraters. You can either cut the pistons where it hits, or use a grinder and carefully cut the slant into the M head. Been there, done that. ChadS



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randy hall

01-24-2006 09:53:18




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to ChadS, 01-24-2006 07:27:01  
firecrater pistons didn't come out until '61, long after the last 450 was built. the ones ih designed for an 'm' fit an 'm' head fine.



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ChadS

01-24-2006 12:53:07




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to randy hall, 01-24-2006 09:53:18  
I just went thru this,,, Had a M, put in a set of firecrater design pistons, (made for the late model heads) came from a late model tractor, used a 8060 head, and SLAP!! The pistons hit the head. Thats why the late model engines had the slant along the manifold side of the chamber, to make room for the new piston design. These were IH pistons, firecrater style pistons, in a M block with a 8060 head. I can show you a picture of them, the ones used inthe M, are totally different than the pistons used inthe 450. For one, the domes on the 450 pistons are spread out more over the top of the pistons,, onthe M design, they were a bigger dome, BUT, not spread out over the top of the piston. Which fit in the M heads,,, but not considered firecrater piston design. They were considered stepped head pistons. Big difference in the 2. SM-450 firecraters will not fit inside the M kerosine-gas heads, the M styles were stepped heads, even though they had a simular shape inthe dome, was much taller, and the dome is in one area of the pistons. Try this,, and its the exact same thing onthe SM,, put a H head on a Super H with firecraters,, Ill betcha a steak dinner, they will hit. Try the same with a SM with firecraters,, put on a M head, it will hit. Chad

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Dave Slater

01-24-2006 17:22:45




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to ChadS, 01-24-2006 12:53:07  
IH made several different # of fire crater pistons.What Randy is trying to say is the ones they sold to fit SM did with no head change.80 percent of SM and MTA I have the head off has fire craters in them and 8060 or 8574 head.



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Dave Slater

01-24-2006 17:21:01




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to ChadS, 01-24-2006 12:53:07  
IH made several different # of fire crater pistons.What Randy is trying to say is the ones they sold to fit SM did with no head change.80 percent of SM and MTA I have the head off has fire craters in them and 8060 or 8574 head.



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ChadS

01-25-2006 14:18:07




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to Dave Slater, 01-24-2006 17:21:01  
Ive got a set of those in my Super M. 8574 head. Different dome shape that the ones used in the 450's. On the M i mentioned earlier, I pulled the sleeves out and put the 450 firecraters in, with the 8060 head. they hit. I agree with the older pistons, made for that head. Ive got 2 sets of those in 4 inch bore. They will fit the old heads, the dome shape is made for that style head. New style firecraters wont. I call the older style more of a stepped head, even though, the shape is simular to a firecrater.

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randy hall

01-23-2006 21:38:09




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
m+w made pistons with an inch dome that would fit a gas head. this was still only a eight to one compression ratio. so you will definetly have no trouble with one "small" domed pistons that you can buy today. back when m's were new regular gasoline was only seventy octane.



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Quebec Red

01-23-2006 17:07:14




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
Strange world. I have a MH44S that this summer I hope to get into. I was going to send it to the great tractor garage in the sky, but after reading on the MH board about the MH44S, I will now restore her. And the thanks goes to the MH boys. About your M, yes. And you could go with high altitude. Just watch your gas. QR



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the tractor vet

01-23-2006 16:18:03




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
No there is more room you could even go with the high Alt. pitons and they realy have a dome on them and still have plenty of room



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MagMan

01-23-2006 16:16:46




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to massey 44, 01-23-2006 15:58:49  
I would not think there would be a problem. They were made for them back in the 50s and such. I would not have the head milled alot unless you take measurements though. Its always good to turn her over slow with out the plugs before you try to start her to make sure everything turns right and stuff. JON



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Janicholson

01-24-2006 07:09:23




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to MagMan, 01-23-2006 16:16:46  
Free lunch (almost)
Before putting things together permanently, try this:
Roll out a piece of kids modeling clay till it is 1/8th inch thick. Use a knife to cut out a oval to cover top of the #1 piston dome. Place the clay on the dome and stick it down a little.
Turn the engine till #1 is on compression TDC.
Put the gasket on the block (dry) and place the head on the gasket. Bolt the cylinder down snug ~10ft/lbs only on #1 cyl. Put the rocker assembly on and push both of the rockers down (one at a time) till either the valve spring is coil bound (coils touching each other) or the valve touches the piston (don't force it). Carefully and accurately (a depth gauge on a caliper is good) measure the spring height when the valve is all the way down, and when it is closed. The difference between these two will be the total travel till contact. If this measurement is greater than the valve lift specification for intake and exhaust, the valves will not touch the piston no matter what.
Gasket crush (for a composition) head gasket will reduce the travel .003-.010" but I think you will find plenty of room unless you are using high ratio pulling rockers and a high lift cam.
The marks in the clay show the location of the point of contact, and are proof of the fact that the valves touched down (or not).
The intake/exhaust TDC location (360 crank degrees from compression TDC) is the location for contact because the valves are (with some cams) both partially open at that point.

If the engine looses valve timing from broken cam, or cam drive, the valves will be in any position possible when the pistons are up. This worst case is the thing to avoid. If your engine has less lift spec than clearance as measured above, there is no way for the crash to happen.
Good luck, it is a bit complex,
JimN

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Jason Simmerman

01-24-2006 09:12:25




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 Re: Fire Crater pistons in M in reply to Janicholson, 01-24-2006 07:09:23  
The way we have done SBC motors and LS motors is we reuse an old head gasket and put playdough (modelling clay) on the piston dome. Using the old headgasket is already crushed to spec. Torque the heads to spec and install rockers and pushrods to spec. Turn the motor over BY HAND and take readings. You should have about .020 - .025 clearance to be safe if the clearance is that tight. If the valves hit the pistons, you can flycut them.

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