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Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!!

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 11:11:52




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I've been restoring my 1952 Super A for well over two years now and finally got to the point where I was going to start it for the first time. I checked the distributor ignition and timed it to the engine and everything checked out. When I tried to start the motor it almost fired up but acted like it wasn't getting fuel. I pulled the plugs and they were dry. The funny thing is that the Zenith carburetor is dripping gas from the bottom of the wick. I pulled the carb and blew out all the jets and they are clear. I've lowered the float a couple times, but no change -- the carb still leaks and the tractor won't fire. I checked the viton needle seat and it seems to be working. I even persuaded my uncle to put some gas on a rag and hold it near the manifold port (carb off) while I turned the motor over by the hand crank -- the rag caught on fire! Scared both of us to death!! I don't understand my problem since the only adjustment on the carb is the idle. I had the carb working great prior to the rebuild. Anyone have any ideas or what I should try next? THANKS in advance for any help!

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Carpenter turned shade tr

12-31-2005 19:41:33




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 Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
I have rebuilt the carb. and changed the plugs. It's the first time this tractor has been cranked in 10 years. It cranked right off the bat but will only run for 90 seconds with the choke on. It won't crank without the choke on and when I back off of the choke while it is running it also dies? What's it going to take to get it to idle?



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Mark in TN

12-31-2005 20:15:54




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 Re: Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Carpenter turned shade tr, 12-31-2005 19:41:33  
My tractor is doing exactly the same thing now that it's running. I've had the carb off several times but obviously missing something. I suspect that needle is not sealing all the time, which would explain why it drips. Adjusting the float has not changed anything, other than slow the dripping down. There are others on this forum that are far more experienced on these old tractors than I am. I have read through the archives and saw many times where the problems like we are having are caused by small things (that you tend to overlook), like a spec of rust out of the gas tank keeping the needle seat from sealing. I would keep at, and when you do find the trouble, that ole B will be running another 10 years!

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Gene-AL

01-01-2006 09:08:52




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 Re: Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Mark in TN, 12-31-2005 20:15:54  
Mark,
Glad you got that SA fired up. If still flooding, have you thought to check if that fine-mesh screen on top of the sediment bowl under the tank is there and intact? That could cause continued float valve problems if particles from the tank are getting through into the carb needle valve. This might also apply to the Carpenter's problem.



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Mark in TN

01-03-2006 06:24:37




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 Re: Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Gene-AL, 01-01-2006 09:08:52  
Gene, I appreciate your post. I finally found that the float level was off enough to cause the bowl to overflow. The tractor runs good now! All the screens are there and in good shape. A couple years ago I used a kit from Eastwood to remove the rust from the gas tank and seal it - the results were excellent.



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Carpenter turned shade tr

12-31-2005 20:54:57




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 Re: Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Mark in TN, 12-31-2005 20:15:54  
Thanks M sorry I came in under your topic. I didn't know how this forum works. I guess I'll take it off again. The gas tank probably has plenty of rust in it. I thought maybe it was some adjustment on the idle screw I needed to do. I am pretty doggone green at this but I can build a house.



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Mark in TN

12-31-2005 21:10:33




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 Re: Farmall B won't stay running in reply to Carpenter turned shade tr, 12-31-2005 20:54:57  
I appreciate your post under my topic! That's what makes this forum so good. No worries about being green - there are many folks on this forum that can really help you. Check the archives too, there's lots of good, helpful info there. When you find the problem let me know. Thanks



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El Toro

12-31-2005 16:48:36




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
When you said that rag caught fire, I was almost sure the engine was not in time. It's very seldom it would spit or backfire through the carburetor. Hal



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Mark in TN

12-31-2005 18:46:36




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-31-2005 16:48:36  
Yeah, I wondered about that myself after it happened, but since the engine never back fired I never suspected it was out of time; my uncle didn't seem alarmed about it either. It's a lesson learned - one I'll never forget! I was saved alot of grief thanks to you fine folks here at YT. My wife said I was speaking complete sentences in my sleep last night about my tractor (hahaha). I guess I've got it pretty bad wouldn't you think?

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El Toro

12-31-2005 18:50:53




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-31-2005 18:46:36  

That means you're thinking about it. Nothing wrong with that. Hal



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El Toro

12-31-2005 04:41:09




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
When you installed the timing gear and meshed the gear teeth with the crankshaft gear and governor
gear. Were the single punch marks on the timing gear installed with the single punch mark on the crankshaft gear? The double punches on the governor? Hal



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Mark in TN

12-31-2005 05:52:15




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-31-2005 04:41:09  
El Toro, yes I marked those punch marks with white paint so I could see them easier. I even took a picture for my files. I'm going to check the timing again today and post back.



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El Toro

12-31-2005 06:12:24




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-31-2005 05:52:15  
I posted further down on that list earlier this morning too. When No1 piston is at TDC on the compression stroke both valves on that cylinder are closed. This is where your engine power is made when the atomized fuel is ignited by your
sparkplug. Put some chalk on the timing mark so it's easy to see. Any snow in TN? It's just cloudy here in MD about 40 degrees. Hal



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Mark in TN

12-31-2005 12:45:32




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-31-2005 06:12:24  
El Toro you were RIGHT!!! I'm ashamed to admit it, but it was 180 off and she fired right up! Since I didn't have anyone to help me this morning I put a compression tester on No.1 spark plug hole and turned the motor until the gauge moved and then lined the mark on the flywheel up with clutch housing. I couldn't believe my eyes when I popped the distributor cap off and saw the rotor pointing at No.4! I still can't believe I did that. Thanks to you and everyone who replied the Super A is running again!!! It will only run at full choke and dies when choke is off, plus I've got a bad oil leak at the oil filter case. The bolt bottoms out before it can put pressure on the case housing. When I bought the tractor it had 3 big washers at the top but still leaked at the top. I put the seal in at the bottom of the filter housing and a couple o rings at the top of the bolt but leaks bad when tractor is running. I only let it run about 5 seconds. It's cloudy and about 45 here in TN. I wished we would get some snow because we have not had a one to speak of in about 3 years. Thanks again to everyone who replied.

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El Toro

12-31-2005 14:18:06




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-31-2005 12:45:32  
Don't feel bad about not being in time. That's very easy to do. to install the distr or mag 180 out. If you ever need to pull the distributor
make sure you know where the rotor is pointing and write it down. Then don't move the the engine until until you reinstall the distr. Makes you feel good when it starts. Enjoy your New Years now. Hal



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Randy-IA

12-30-2005 15:06:47




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
A thought from left field , you don't have the valves adjusted to tight or to loose do you ? With the carb off and the coil wire off put your hand over the intake while someone cranks it . You have a strong vacuum ? Air and fuel in the right mix , spark at the right time ( You did check for a HEALTHY spark ;>) , and compression and you should have a running engine . A little more to it than that but not much . Key word here is RIGHT . Can you check for a vacuum leak ? If vacuum is good try this , put about a beer cap full ( from a long neck not a quart ) of gas in each cylinder and then try and start it with the carb on it . It should at least fire once or twice . It'll help narrow things down . Hope this helps

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 16:07:08




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Randy-IA, 12-30-2005 15:06:47  
Randy, you got that right! I found out right quick it has a HEALTHY spark - good thing he was able to throw that rag outside easily and didn't burn himself; probably better not do that inside shop. I set the valves at .015 and had my uncle double check it. Last night I pulled the carb and held my hand over the intake while he cranked it - very good vacuum. I haven't tried putting gas into the cylinders and hope I won't have to, but like you say it will narrow things down. I'll keep trying and post back what I find. THANKS!

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 16:06:55




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Randy-IA, 12-30-2005 15:06:47  
Randy, you got that right! I found out right quick it has a HEALTHY spark - good thing he was able to throw that rag outside easily and didn't burn himself; probably better not do that inside shop. I set the valves at .015 and had my uncle double check it. Last night I pulled the carb and held my hand over the intake while he cranked it - very good vacuum. I haven't tried putting gas into the cylinders and hope I won't have to, but like you say it will narrow things down. I'll keep trying and post back what I find. THANKS!

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Randy-IA

12-30-2005 16:24:21




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 16:06:55  
Yeah , You don't want to pour raw gas in a new engine , I didn't take the NEW part into consideration . But as a last resort it might still work . Shouldn't do any more damage though than a flood situation . But DON'T under any circumstances even look at starting fluid for a gas engine . NO, NO , NO not good ! A new engine has enough blowby to fill the crankcase with it and then you get a very unexpected and very load POP when the valve cover blows off the engine or worse . I've never done this but my BIL did , once ! Didn't really hurt the engine but it could have hurt everyone involved . Good luck ! By the way , I'm not a card carrying member of the safety police , it's just that some things are plain dumb ! ....Randy

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El Toro

12-30-2005 14:28:47




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
Have you checked your wiring to the plugs and on the distrubutor cap. The wires should be on the
cap is order. With this firing order 1-3-4-2 and
No1 plug near the radiator with CW rotation on the rotor. Hal
PS: I would bring No1 piston up on the compression stroke to TDC and then see where your rotor is pointing in the distributor. 2-1
4-3



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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 16:32:51




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-30-2005 14:28:47  
EL Toro, I have the plug wires exactly as you said:
2-1
4-3
I watched No.1 exhaust valve close and lined the DC 1-4 mark on the flywheel to the clutch housing and set valves for that cylinder. I also checked the rotor and (after turning the distributor slightly) it pointed straight to No.1, then set the rest of the gaps according to the firing order. I'll double check eveything and post back if I find something. THANKS for your help!

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El Toro

12-31-2005 04:24:32




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 16:32:51  
I think you should remove No1 plug again and bring that piston to TDC on the compression stroke. Make sure there's pressure against your thumb. Squirt some engine oil into the cylinder
before starting. It's very easy to get on the exhaust stroke. Once you feel that pressure slowly crank the engine until your timing marks are aligned. Then look to where the rotor is pointing. Should be at No1. I reeived an email from a man that had a starting problem with a B.
I think he timed it on the wrong piston. He got it started by moving the wires to this firing order.
Hal


1-3
2-4

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KEB

12-30-2005 18:14:29




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 16:32:51  
Reading this carefully again, it looks like you have the distributor timing 180 degrees off. You said you watched the exhaust valve close, then lined up the timing mark & the distributor was pointing at number 1. The exhaust valve closes at the end of the exhaust stroke and beginning of the intake stroke. You need spark at the top of the compression stroke, which occurs one full crankshaft revolution (1/2 revolution of the distributor) later. Take out the #1 spark plug, put your thumb over the spark plug hole, crank the engine until you start to feel compression against your thumb, and then bring the crank around to line up the timing marks. The distributor should now be pointing at #1.

If you're not sure, just move the spark plug wires to the opposite point on the distributor cap & see if it helps. For diagnostic purposes, moving the spark plug wires is a lot easier than taking off the distributor. Firing order would then be: 3-4
1-2

Keith

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 21:35:48




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to KEB, 12-30-2005 18:14:29  
Thanks KEB, I can see why the red flag went up when you read my post about setting the valves and the distributor. But I did exactly as you indicated and the rotor points to No.1 -- I'm sure of it, but I am going to check it again. It never hurts to double check. On the rebuild, I completely disassembled the tractor for the restoration. I used PPG primer & paint and it turned out great! The engine rebuild was top and bottom, including having the crankshaft turned. I've spent LOTS of money on this tractor. Thanks!

Mark

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El Toro

12-30-2005 16:44:07




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 16:32:51  
If you have good vacuum and spark I would put on a good thick glove and hold your hand over the carburetor throat while someone tries to start it.
This should pull that atomized gas into the engine. I would set those valves to .017" too. Hal



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El Toro

12-30-2005 12:56:11




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
Pull the plugs and squirt some engine oil into those cylinders and then try another start. Hal



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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 13:50:38




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-30-2005 12:56:11  
El Toro, I put a couple squirts of oil in each cylinder and tried to start it again. I heard it fire several times on single cylinders, but it never started. My battery is too weak with the plugs in to turn the motor enough to start it so I'm cranking by hand. The battery is a Agri Power Co-Op 730 CCA and I thought it had a dead cell so I took it yesterday to have it checked. It turned out to be good. I'm out of ideas for the moment. Thanks to everyone who replied.

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 13:00:31




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-30-2005 12:56:11  
Thanks EL Toro, I'll try that right now!



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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 12:51:07




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
I've checked the timing and the rotor points to No.1 at TDC on the compression stroke. The motor has not back fired at all and it didn't back fire when the rag caught on fire. Thanks old and El Toro.



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KEB

12-30-2005 18:00:16




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 12:51:07  
How far apart did you have the engine during the rebuild? Any chance the valve timing is off? One tooth off would be enough to make it hard to start & run really poorly if you did manage to get it started. A quick check is to watch the rockers for #1 cylinder as it comes up on the exhaust stroke (not the compression stroke). The exhaust valve will close at the same time the intake valve opens. The transition from exhaust to intake should correspond to top dead center (check with the timing mark).

As others have said, check the basics one at a time. You need fuel, air, compression & spark in the right combination and at the right times.

Good luck,

Keith

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Nat 2

12-30-2005 17:13:50




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 12:51:07  
The engine HAD to have backfired if it started the rag on fire at the carburetor intake!!!!

A spark plug spark is way up in the top of the cylinder. There's no way that little spark could have directly ignited the rag through all those twists and turns in the intake.

I think the biggest problem here is differences in perception. A little gas to one person may be a teaspoon, and a little gas to someone else may be a quart... That's the kind of thing I'm talking about. What's your definition of "backfire?" Which cylinder are you using as #1?

An engine needs fuel, air, and fire, at the correct time to run. Sounds like you're still not timed right.

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old

12-30-2005 12:36:42




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
Sounds like you could be 180 out on the timing.



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fluggie in Ia

12-30-2005 12:46:51




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to old, 12-30-2005 12:36:42  
that's what it sounds like to me too, is it is 180 degrees off on the timing.



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El Toro

12-30-2005 12:36:37




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Mark in TN, 12-30-2005 11:11:52  
When the rag caught fire, did the engine backfire? Hal



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Gene-AL

12-30-2005 17:52:03




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to El Toro, 12-30-2005 12:36:37  
First, shut off the supply of that excess gas-
My '51 Super-A won't even try to start when gas is dripping from the little screened hole on the bottom of the carb inlet. This can be caused by the needle valve failing to seal when it closes, by a leak behind the needle valve seat, or the float level is misadjusted or possibly rubbing (sticking) on the side of the bowl, or the float has a pinhole and has gas inside it.

To isolate the problem, be sure the gas is shut off at the tank, and give it enough time for the dripping to stop and all that extra gas to evaporate (overnight?), then with the TANK VALVE STILL SHUT OFF, try to start the engine. If there are no other problems, the engine should start and run normally while the gas in the carb bowl lasts (I've started up and driven out of the barn several times after forgetting to open the gas tank shutoff).

If it does run, then go back to the float, needle, or needle seat and see what may have been overlooked earlier.

Assumed here that you checked that the air filter isn't blocked somehow or the choke stuck shut?

Hope this is useful.

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Mark in TN

12-30-2005 22:17:54




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 Re: Super A won't start - HELP!!!!!! in reply to Gene-AL, 12-30-2005 17:52:03  
Gene-AL, I know exactly what your talking about when it comes to excess gas dripping from the bottom of the carburetor - I've tried to stop it to no avail! This tractor never liked much choke. I've tried several settings for the float level, but it still leaks every time. While I had the carb off I put a flexible gas line onto the inlet and used a funnel to pour fuel to test the needle seat, but gradually gas would run into the air filter hole. I would set the float lower; same thing, it leaked. Next, I took the carb apart and, with the float engaging the needle, used a hose connected to the inlet to see if the needle seat was sealing. Everytime I tried this I couldn't blow air into it, so I can only ASSUME it's sealing. I don't think these carbs should leak like this if they are working right! The seat is probably leaking. I've also checked to see if the float was rubbing the inside of bowl and everything seems to be good there. Good point about the air breather. I checked that and it's all clear. Thanks!

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