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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Smokin' H

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Eric Allen

12-17-2005 23:46:40




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Is there a way to tell if it's rings or valves or both when you have a lot of blue smoke in the exhaust? I'ld like to avoid getting into the bottom end if I can get away with it. Is there any chance it could be bad valve seals and not rings? I'm tempted to get the valves ground and do top end gaskets and maybe a can of rislone or STP or something like that, but if it then turned out to be rings I would have wasted new top end gaskets. What do you think, anyone know how I might tell? Thank you much.

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Eric Allen

12-30-2005 12:36:35




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
Thanks for all the good advice, I will do a compression test with and without a bit of oil added and check the air filter oilto see what I can find out. I've never gotten into a tractor engine before and frankly am a bit daunted by the thought. My Dad and I found it rusty and all busted up from woods work, patched it up and surprisingly it ran great, drove fine in all gears, and even had good brakes, but it smoked enough to keep any mosquitos in a mile area away so my Dad parked it and there it still sits. I've always liked the looks of the old girl though and wanted to find a way to give it a second chance. thanks. I'll keep you posted...

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old

12-18-2005 09:58:46




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
I always laugh when some one tells me this or that has a rebuilt head, guess why?? If all you do is rebuild the head, give it a year or less and the bottom will fall out no matter what. Wear is wear and every things wears at the same rate so if the top is bad so is the bottom.



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Blue3992

12-18-2005 09:36:24




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
And just something I've read about, if you have an oil bath air filter, make sure you have the right weight oil in it. Too light an oil, and it will get sucked into to engine and get burnt.



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Janicholson

12-18-2005 06:47:31




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 Re: Smokin' H_I agree in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
The only thing to add is an additional test for valve guide wear. (and a cheap fix)
If the engine smokes most after idling for a while, or after going down a hill in 5th with the throttle closed, then cleans up pretty much when being worked some, then guides may be the issue.
High vacuum causes more oil to be drawn in past the loose guides.
If this is the case, putting on Perfect circle valve seals (or even just umbrella seals) does not require removing the head.

Tips
Remove rocker shaft, leave pushrods in.
Work on one cyl at a time.
Put piston on TDC and lock engine in that position by putting in 5th and locking brakes. (keeps valves from falling into the cylinder if pressure is lost)
Use a 3/4" deep socket and plastic hammer to rap the keeper downward on each valve to break them loose.
Put shop air pressure in the cylinder through an old spark plug brazed to an air fitting. (keeps valves closed with retainers off)
Use a tierod "pickle fork" and a piece of 5/16 chain to make a spring compressor to remove the keepers. Bolt the chain to holes used for rocker shaft. Don't use the rocker shaft bolts.
Install the seals, and reassemble.
The process takes as much time to organize as it does to do.
JimN

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Allan in NE

12-18-2005 06:43:19




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
Eric,

Just fer what it is worth, on any "well-used" engine, if ya only tighten up the top end, you are just begging the bottom to take a dump.

And, it will.

Allan



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Steven@AZ

12-18-2005 05:55:18




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
How much is a lot of blue smoke? Like a cloud that keeps the mosquitos away?

These old tractors will all throw some blue smoke when you start them because there are no valve seals. None, zip, zilch. They never came with valve seals.

Advice below is correct, do a compression check and get back to us with the results of dry vs. with oil in the cylinders (not a lot, just a couple squirts). If you don't have a compression tester you should be able to rent one for under $10 for the day, or buy one for around $25.

How is the oil pressure? If the oil pressure is good then you know the bearings are just fine and you might just need a new set of rings...

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Slappy

12-18-2005 03:43:11




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 Re: Smokin' H in reply to Eric Allen, 12-17-2005 23:46:40  
I assume you have done all of the easy fixes - engine is well-tuned, used additives to un-stick rings, cleared all the improtant passages, etc - and have concluded that the problem will require more than a band-aid.

My personal preference would be to do a complete overhaul. After all, if the top end is that worn, can the bottom be far behind? In the long run you"ll save money and be happier in the meanwhile. At the very least measure the journal and rod clearances so you know what you"re getting yourself into.

That being said, I understand that for a lot of reasons, a top end rebuild may make more sense for you. You can tell if the problem is rings or valves sometimes by doing a compression test before and after adding a bit of oil into the cylinder. If compression improves after the oil is added (oil helps make a better seal at the rings) the rings are implicated; if not the valves are suspect.

In the end it probably dosen"t matter. If you"re going to go to the trouble to pull the head and have it re-worked then replace, grind, or at least lap the valves AND replace the rings (don"t forget to hone the cylinder walls). Rings, and valves for that matter, are cheap, it is the time and labor that your machinist will put into the head that will be the big expense.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

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