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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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A engine to Super A

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Gene37

10-22-2005 15:46:34




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Is there a way to convert my A engine to a Super A engine?




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Hugh MacKay

10-23-2005 01:42:21




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Gene37, 10-22-2005 15:46:34  
Gene37: You didn't say whether you just wanted to bring your A up to SA horsepower specs or are you wanting to convert the engine to work in a SA? There is a difference, most of this has been covered by Dave, Jim and Charles.

If you are just trying to bring your A up to SA hp specs., I wouldn't put a whole lot of money into this project. I have used all these offsets in my time, and could never see a whole lot of difference in power between A, SA, 100, 130 and 140. I know the IH specs and Nebraska tests will tell you there is a difference, but how great and can you pick it out from the seat working the tractor.

Currently I have a SA, 130 and 140. SA has C-113 engine and others have C-123. All have factory original piston and sleeve kits. I have a 17 shank S-tine field cultivator, if you allow that cultivator to drop without control, it will stop anyone of these tractors dead in it's tracks. Not sure it wouldn't stop an H. I must use depth control with this cultivator. My Super A will lug this cultivator all day just as fast as 130 or 140. I can see very little difference, no matter which tractor I use. I can tell you 130 is down a bit on compression, but SA and 140 are right up there. If I were to give the edge to any of the three it would go to 130. Believe me it would be a hard call.

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Gene37

10-23-2005 06:08:26




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-23-2005 01:42:21  
Thanks for the response. We are overhauling our A engine and thought if it wasn't too costly to bring this engine up to Super A Specs., then it would be a good time to do it. We are looking for a little more HP to run the Woods mower.



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Hugh MacKay

10-23-2005 09:51:28




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Gene37, 10-23-2005 06:08:26  
Gene37: Are you sure there is any difference between A and SA? They both have C-113 engine. The Super A was never tested at Nebraska so they don't call it more hp than the A. I can't remember if IH called it more hp. SA1, 100, 130 and 140 all have C-123 engine. Like I said in my earlier post, I don't think your going to see enough difference to spend many dollars over and above standard factory parts. I know having had the experience I have I wouldn't spend a cent over factory original on rebuild parts.

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Gene37

10-23-2005 12:26:58




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-23-2005 09:51:28  
I was told that the Super engine has more HP but that is all I know about it. I guess we will overhaul the engine as is. Thanks for everyones information on this.



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Jim Becker

10-23-2005 11:36:06




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-23-2005 09:51:28  
I believe there was a slight cylinder head change made shortly after the Super A went into production. It MAY have made some modest change in power, but not much. My father never thought that any increase was enough to make up for the constant load from the hydraulic system. When using one for simple pulling work, he prefered to use an A over a Super A.



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Hugh MacKay

10-23-2005 16:14:53




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Jim Becker, 10-23-2005 11:36:06  
Jim: The change you speak of probably happened at serial number 310300 when they changed to block part number 354898 R1, basically a C-123 block with real thick sleeves giving still a 3" bore, and only 113 cu in.

I know my Super A will give my 130 and 140 hard run on drawbar lugging. I've also driven A's that were just as good. Bear in mind my Super A and any A's I have used all had 9.5x24 tires and 130 has 12.4x24 and 140 has 11.2x24. That 12.4 is 5" more diameter and 11.2 is about 3" more. I'm told here at YT in discussions the gear and final drive ratios never changed. Not sure I believe that, as full throttle in 1st gear they are very close in speed.

As I said in earlier post, I have a single point fast hitch field cultivator 17 shanks, (modern S-tines) with gauge wheels. Those take about 1.25 hp per shank and will stop these tractors if set a bit too deep. If Super A is getting traction it will lug with the other two. Where flotation and traction are and issue the 130 and 140 have a bit of an edge. I built this cultivator in 1990, and have more than just a few hours pulling it with each tractor. It had years in the 1990s where it tilled 60 acres.

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Jim Becker

10-24-2005 21:17:24




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-23-2005 16:14:53  
Actually, the change I was refering to was the change from 6716 DB or 9052 DX to 25173 R92 which happened at 255417. These are all gas heads. The valves changed at the same number and I think it was the stem length that chaged, which suggests a change in combistion chamber.



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Janicholson

10-22-2005 16:42:47




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Gene37, 10-22-2005 15:46:34  
Red Dave is correct.
If you want to make it as powerful as a super A it can be done with a sleeve kit, there are many options. IMHO the only one to avoid is the sleeve set that requires the boring of the deck of the block, and the sleeve spigot hole in the lower part of the block.
If you want to flat replace your engine with a super A engine or other 123ci engine , I believe they bolt in with few problems some may require front cover changes (help me here guys). The advantage is modest live hydraulics (with the required effort to assemble the needed components, and some additional power.
JimN

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Hugh MacKay

10-23-2005 08:59:29




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Janicholson, 10-22-2005 16:42:47  
Jim: There are two problems with putting factory hydraulics touch control on an A first the hole for pump in engine block is not there and secondly torque tube is different where touch control mounts. A is round on top, SA is flat on top.



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Janicholson

10-23-2005 11:56:52




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Hugh MacKay, 10-23-2005 08:59:29  
Hugh,
My post (in the second half discusses the changing of the block to a 123cid with the pump mount.
I made a short attempt to explain that the hydraulics would need to be assembled from components, not taken in whole from an SA. This would include spool valves hoses, and a resivoir. The elements of the "new" system would be for remote cylinders etc.
I was probably just insufficiently wordy.
JimN :-}

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Hugh MacKay

10-23-2005 16:23:06




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Janicholson, 10-23-2005 11:56:52  
Jim: I follow you now, see what your are suggesting. I've seen a couple of these geared up with factory pump, remote valves and resovoir.



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CNKS

10-22-2005 19:01:21




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Janicholson, 10-22-2005 16:42:47  
The A and Super A engines are both C113's, the Super C and Super A1 engines were C123's. The Super A engine "may" have the governor set a little higher for a couple of more HP, otherwise they are identical, except the Super A engine has a place the mount a hydraulic pump.



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Red Dave

10-22-2005 16:04:36




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 Re: A engine to Super A in reply to Gene37, 10-22-2005 15:46:34  
No.

The A engine doesn't have a place to mount the hydraulic pump cast into it like a Super A engine does.



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