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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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46 farmall h oil pressure

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walter

10-12-2005 19:12:35




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i bought a 46 farmall h that had not ran in a few years. i tuned it up and it statered and i ran it for a few hours it started smokeing and losing oil pressure i tore it down and had the head rebuilt and put in new main, rod brgs. and rings on the same piston and liners that homed out good. after putting it back together i still have low oil pressure. i replace the pump and it did not get any better. HELP!!

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MJ in the UK

10-13-2005 09:47:30




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-12-2005 19:12:35  
Have you tried a different oil pressure gauge MJ



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walter

10-13-2005 12:46:51




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to MJ in the UK, 10-13-2005 09:47:30  
yes i replaced it with a new one and even added a second gauge on the block at the oil rail (1/8 inch port) and they read the same.



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Roger WI

10-12-2005 19:32:00




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-12-2005 19:12:35  
Walter, Did you check the relief valve. If you get something stuck under it or the spring is bad you will not have good oil pressure as the oil will just bypass. Roger



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walter

10-12-2005 19:38:14




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Roger WI, 10-12-2005 19:32:00  
yes i did twice i even put in a few washers on the back side to give more tension on it



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walter

10-12-2005 19:41:05




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-12-2005 19:38:14  
i did not check the cam brgs. could the oil bypass thought them and not let me build oil pressure.



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Slappy

10-13-2005 02:56:28




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-12-2005 19:41:05  
Yes, bad cam bearings will give you low pressure, but I think I would do two simple fixes first.

Make sure your oil gauge is good. If so, check the oil pump a little further before tearing the engine down again.

First, and I'm not trying to be a smart a** here, check the pump cover gasket. If you replaced it by making a new gasket out of regular gasket material you will have too much clearance between the cover and the gears and your oil pressure will be nill. The correct gasket is only 0.05" thick.

If your good with the gasket, next I would check the clearance on the oil pump gears, both between the body and the gears and lash between the gears. If they are out of spec, put new gears in (NOS gears are available). Also be sure that the shaft does not have any side play, if it does, you need a different pump body and/or the shaft is worn excessively.

Finally, (and this the the easiest fix) be sure that the gear end play isn't excessive as it will cut away at the pump cover. This happens a lot and causes oil to bypsss gears reducing pressure. If you find galling on the cover, measure the play between the pump body and the oil pump cam drive gear (write it down) if out of spec, knock out the pin, remove the woodruff key and pull the cam drive gear. Add shims (McMaster and Carr has them)to get the end play back into spec. Next have the pump cover milled flat, or if you have nothing but time on your hands, get a piece of plate glass, some grinding compound and do it yourself. Finally order a new gasket and reassemble.

Despite the fact that the pump is bathed in oil they do wear. I bougt three used pumps before I found a good pump body, and all had gears out of spec. I replace the gears, got the end play into spec and put it in my rebuilt H - oil pressure shot to 70 psi and hardly moves.

Once you know the pump is good, and the problem persists, it's time to think about the cam bearings.

Good luck

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walter

10-13-2005 12:50:36




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Slappy, 10-13-2005 02:56:28  
the gascket was good but i did change it out to a .004 and it gave me about 3 more pounds i have 15psi at idle and 16psi at fully thottle. i checked out the pump and the clearence all looked good but i did have an question on the proper clearences.



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Slappy

10-14-2005 03:07:07




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter , 10-13-2005 12:50:36  
Did you find the clearance values for the oil pump yet? If not, I have them at home and can look them up if needs be. When you look at the gears, you should see no obvious gap on either side of where the teeth mesh. Although I'm probably kicking a dead horse - I'd look at the bottom of the pump cover again. If you have a few thousandths wear on the cover from contacting the pump gears and then add a .004" gasket then oil pressure will be affected. Don't forget check the screen pick-up for junk.

It may be time to start thinking cam bearings, but if it were me I'd go through the oil pump one more time before going to the expense and trouble. It would really tick me off if I put in new bearings and still have the problem.

E-mail me if you have questions.

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walter

10-14-2005 06:26:12




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Slappy, 10-14-2005 03:07:07  
i did get some of the clearence but dont got backlash between the gears. you say there should be no obvious gap in the teeth mesh, you mean where the teeth on the gear mesh into each other. because i (guessing here) have probable between .005 and .010 clearence there.



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Slappy

10-14-2005 07:42:46




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-14-2005 06:26:12  
Walter,

Yes, check the gap where the gear teeth mesh with each other. I'll try to post you the clearance values from the service manual tonight, but 0.010 I'm pretty sure is too much.

Once you compare all of the clearance values for your pump with the correct specs, you will know for sure if this is your problem. The reason I'm so keen on the pump is that from talking with people who rebuild Farmall engines frequently, I get the impression (and it is just a feeling) that cam bearings don't take as much wear and tear as the rods and mains for example, and so are not the usual culprit for low oil pressure.

Stick with it you'll get it figured out soon.

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walter

10-14-2005 09:27:08




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Slappy, 10-14-2005 07:42:46  
any thing will help i hope to get this tractor going i bought it in pieces for 300.00 dollars as a toy and now it is all in one piece and the dawn thing runs very,very good after the little bit for parts and tune-up i did to it. it start right up no chocking it and runs clean i would say even better that when it was new(i guess it is about30 years old than i am).if i can get oil pressure back it will be prefect.

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Slappy

10-14-2005 16:30:27




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter , 10-14-2005 09:27:08  
Walter here are the clearance values:

diametral clearance of gears in pump body - 0.005-0.008
Body gears endplay - 0.003-0.006
Body gears backlash - 0.003-0.006

These clearances will give "like-new" performance, however, a pump 0.002 or so out of spec will still give better oild pressure than you describe.

Can I assume from your last e-mail that you didn't put the new rod and main bearins in? If not you may want to check the rod and main clearances again.

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walter

10-14-2005 17:21:54




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Slappy, 10-14-2005 16:30:27  
i did put in new rod and main brgs. and the clearence was good. clearence between the gears mesh is .014 the clearence between the gears and the pump body is .0035



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walter

10-14-2005 19:52:51




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-14-2005 17:21:54  
i would like to clear this in my head. the diametral clearence is the clearence betweenthe gears and the inside for the housing. body gear backlash is the clearence between both the gears were they inertwine with each other. the body gear end play is the up and down or in and out clearence of the drive gear and shaft, and if so is it with or without the rear plate cover on. if all if this is right then i have double the clearence in the backlash. and need to replace the gears and would like to know where to get these gears. i saw the name noshi but could not find them on the internet.

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Slappy

10-15-2005 06:34:31




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter, 10-14-2005 19:52:51  
1) The dimetrical clearance between the body and gears: With the bottom cover off, push the drive gear (one on the shaft) toward the pump body. Measure that clearance with a feeler guage. Do the same with the idler gear. This measure tells you if the pump body is worn and allowing the drive gear shaft or idler gear to move side to side. It probably means the shaft is worn too - but either way the pump body has to be replaced.

2) Endplay can be measured with the cover off. Push the the shaft gear assembly up from the bottom. Use a feeler guage to measure the gap created between the oil pump drive pinion (the top gear that meshes with the cam)and the pump body. This measure is often out of spec. The result is that the pump gears can now contact the oil pump cover plate, cutting circular indentations into the plate through which oil is allowed to escape producing low oil pressure. Look at the bottom of the cover plate if it isn't smooth or nearly so, you have excessive endplay.

Three things must be done to affect a fix: 1)eliminate the endplay by removing the drive pinion and place the appropriate shims under it to make up excessive play, 2) have the coverplat refaced so it is perfectly smooth, 3)replace the gasket with a new 0.005" thick gasket. This seems to be the most common reason for oil pressure loss at the pump. You must fix the endplay to fix the problem - smoothing the cover is not enough.

3) Gear backlash: that is the gap between the drive and idler gear teeth when they are meshed together. You already know that yours are out of spec by over 100%. The only fix here is to replace the gears. Some people get into spec, or close enough to get pretty good oil pressure by replacing only the idler gear. The pinion drive gear is a bit of a pain to remove, and some folks don't like to mess with it. If you have to fix endplay, however, you may as well replace both gears if you can afford it.

To find NOS parts try posting a new message asking where others go for parts, and also put an add in the classifieds. I got mine sometime back and I can't remember the gentleman's name, but his screen name is NOSIH. The other alternative is to find a good used pump.

Even if your cam bearings have to be replaced in the end (and I hope not), you will want a great functioning pump to protect all those new parts you worked so hard to get in. So either way the pump is time and money well spent.

Good luck, let us know how it goes.

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walter

10-15-2005 11:16:30




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to Slappy, 10-15-2005 06:34:31  
thank for all the help



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El Toro

10-13-2005 16:27:31




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter , 10-13-2005 12:50:36  
That's on page 6 posted by Scotty.
Slappy is the one that rebuilt his pump with new gears. You need to make sure the body of the pump hasn't been worn by the gears rubbing against the pump body. Jump over to Page 6 and read Slappy's posting. Hal



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ElToro

10-13-2005 16:17:10




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 Re: 46 farmall h oil pressure in reply to walter , 10-13-2005 12:50:36  
Someone posted a few days of doing what Slappy recommends for you to do. I think it was a Super
C with low oil pressure and he replaced the gears
with new ones and his pressure is 70 lbs. I'll look back over some of the older postings and if I find it I'll post again where you can read it.
Hal



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