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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Ammeter - 450

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Illinois Boy

09-19-2005 07:16:06




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My neighbor has a Farmall 450 he"s restoring and says the ammeter has never worked since he"s owned the tractor. (12V conversion) I told him I"d contact the experts on this one... : >
What would cause an ammeter to simply not work? (Besides a bad gauge...) No discharge or charge
All connections are tight and clean. I was wondering about the generator and if, in fact, it may be a 6V that was never changed, which would explain the "no charge" problem, but not the no discharge.
Voltage reg????

Any ideas or help would be appreciated.

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John T

09-19-2005 12:58:51




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 07:16:06  
Illinois, an "Ideal Ammeter" is electrically a zero ohms short circuit, but of course, none are ideal. If its wired correct BOTH the Supply and Load terminals MUST read hot battery voltage.

The Supply side usually has but one wire and thats the hot ungrounded battery feed source, often conected at the starter or solenoid where the big battery cable attaches. The other Load terminal is what feeds loads like lights n ignition PLUS the BAT terminal on a Voltage Regulator or Cutout Relay. If its mis wired it may not be correctly reading the current flowing into (charging) or out of (discharging) the battery.

With the tractor NOT running if you switch on the ignition (if a coil ignition not a mag) if working n wired correct it should swing to discharge (around - 4 amps) and then if you also turn on the lights it should swing further to discharge DOES YOURS????? ?

An accurate DC voltmeter on the battery not running, if its full charged, should be around 12.6 volts, but If running and charging well around 13 to 14 or so volts EVEN IF THE AMMETER WERE NOT WORKING.

Disconnect everything n insure theres near zero ohms through the ammeter and then with all attached insure theres hot battery voltage on BOTH sides. Typical charge current may be 10 to 20 amps, less typical loads like ignition n lights 4 to 10 amps, so what max scale is your ammeter?????

Perhaps the movement is simply stuck?? Does the needle ever deflect any if its lightly tapped??

Post back your findings n any questions n we will try n get her working, Check wiring n voltages and resistance !!!!! !!!!

Let us all know, good luck n God Bless

John T in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

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Nat

09-19-2005 09:06:32




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 07:16:06  
There's no such thing as a "6V Ammeter." Amps are Amps no matter what voltage is being used.

Either it's not wired into the system at all, or it's broken. There are no other explanations for why it wouldn't show charge or discharge.



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BFinOHWA

09-19-2005 10:44:10




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Nat, 09-19-2005 09:06:32  
Good call Amps are Amps. Also Ammeters are wired in series. Which means if it ain't workin' it ain't chargin' up the system. The Ammeter should be wired straight off of the Gen before it goes anywhere else, thats the only way you can get an accurate Amp reading. So if your Gen is putting out at the Gen but the rest of your tractor isn't getting any juice bypass your ammeter and see if it charges, more than likely it will, then get a new ammeter.

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Bob M

09-19-2005 07:53:18




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 07:16:06  
Presuming the ammeter's not wired incorrectly (and after a 12 volt conversion an incorrect ammeter hookup is always a possibility...), most likely the ammeter needle is stuck. And a stuck ammeter is not unusual for a tractor that's left outside a lot or where it's very humid.

A few checks (first 2 with the engine stopped):

1 - Turn on the ignition. The ammeter should indicate -3 amps or so. Or it will show a couple needle widths deflection to the left for the uncalibrated (D-0-C) factory meter.

2 - Turn on the lights. Ammeter should read about 10 amps (or about 1/3 full scale) discharge.

Now if the original ammeter was replaced with a -60-0-60 unit, the ignition may not draw enough current to cause it to show discharge on test #1. It should still however clearly show discharge when the lights are on.

3 - Take a good DC voltmeter and place it across the battery posts. It should read 12.4 volts or so. Now start the engine and run it at governed RPM. If the voltmeter now indicates 13.0 volts or higher the battery is being charged regardless of a "0" reading on the ammeter.

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old

09-19-2005 07:33:05




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 07:16:06  
Well unless it has lights it may not show a discharge. The tractor eletics. don't pull much as far as amps. I have one that the needle only goes a little to the discharge side when turned on but shows charge when running. One thing you can do to check it is to start the tractor and pull one of the battery cables off the battery if it stays running you are getting a charge from the genny how much don't know you'd need to check that with a meter

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Illinois Boy

09-19-2005 09:49:50




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to old, 09-19-2005 07:33:05  
My original thought was the dang thing is broke.
If it's working at all and wired wrong, it would just swing the wrong way. It ought to show some activity on the battery / charge circuit, as that is what it is really monitoring.
Guess I could connect my amp clamp around the input side and see what gives there.

Thanks for all of the suggestions.



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Bob M

09-19-2005 09:57:58




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 09:49:50  
Be aware that if your "amp clamp" is an Amprobe or similar clamp-on AC unit, it will not read the DC currents flowing in your tractor!

However another quick ammeter test is to take a small magnet, bring it close to the ammeter face and move the magnet around. If the ammeter hand is not stuck you will find orientations of the magnet that cause the ammeter hand to deflect both sides of "0".

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Illinois Boy

09-19-2005 10:04:37




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Bob M, 09-19-2005 09:57:58  
Thanks Bob,
You're right!!!! - it's an AC model / not DC.
(DC does not "alternate" does it???)
Heck - I think I'll get one from NAPA to test 'er out. I believe I saw one in there for about 6 or 7 bucks.



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Bob M

09-19-2005 10:11:01




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 Re: Ammeter - 450 in reply to Illinois Boy, 09-19-2005 10:04:37  
Good thought! I've got one of those $6 "lay on the wire" DC ammeters. Not terribly accurate but accurate enough for your purposes. Just make sure to keep it a foot or more away from any stong magnetic field (magneto, operating alterator, etc) when taking a reading - otherwise the readings will be unpredictable!



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