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Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ??

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scott#2

09-18-2005 10:14:36

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Does this mean that sealer is required and a re-torque after run in? Or does it mean if you use sealer, you must re-torque after run in? The exact phrase on the gasket says: sealer/retorque required. Just wondering.

Thanks,

scott

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lee

09-18-2005 15:11:31

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 10:14:36

The starting torque or static friction torque is higher than the dynamic or moving friction torque so that's why you would back them off and approach the torque limit under motion. It's done that way so you get a more precise and consistent torque and don't over torque. You always want to bring a nut or bolt up to torque spec under motion. When you tighten a bolt with a hand wrench you can feel this effect. If you pay attention it takes a bit more torque to start a bolt or nut turning than it does to sustain it turning. Ever tighten or loosen a wheel lug nut?
These types of nuts and bolts are designed to take advantage of static friction to keep them tight. People talk of breaking them loose. You have to overcome that static friction torque (generated where they seat with the wheel) to loosen them.

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CNKS

09-18-2005 17:55:18

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to lee, 09-18-2005 15:11:31

Thought I would try to find something about retorquing -- really didn't find much, probably because most modern automotive gaskets aren't retorqued, and I didn't find much about the older ones. As to the link, it does not mention backing the bolt off (this is at the bottom of the linked page). I did find one link that did. To sum, It may help to back the bolt off first and there is nothing wrong with it, but the most important points are clean, oiled threads and an accurate torque wrench.

Torque

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lee

09-18-2005 18:50:47

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to CNKS, 09-18-2005 17:55:18

Many a tractor cylinder head has been assembled without the aid of a torque wrench. So, this is more of an acadmic discussion as the torque values are not that critical, as long as they are close. It may apply more to performance engines, aluminum heads, etc. where consistent and correct torque can be critical. What can often happen when a bolt is re-torqued is that the bolt may be very close to the required torque already. When you go to re-torque it, it may break friction very close to the torque limit and end up overtorqued. Or it may not break friction and end up undertorqued. That's why it is best to back off and reach limit in motion, with clean threads, good lubrication etc..

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CNKS

09-18-2005 19:25:03

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to lee, 09-18-2005 18:50:47

Yes, this is probably getting too technical for this forum -- but as to the friction, one site said to torque to 50% or so of the final value, back off and repeat several times, to get rid of some of the friction (don't remember the exact terminology).

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MagMan

09-18-2005 13:21:52

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 10:14:36

I am not sure what tractor you have but it only takes a few seconds to back off the nut just to loosen it and then set it at the spec and retighten and go to the next nut.You always have Different people that say different things On how to do a job but when I went to trade school this is the way we were taught.You know how when you go to retorque a nut it takes alot before it actually snaps loose well thats how some studs get broke they dont have be nessisarily rusted just old and streched a little. I had a neighbor that went through 6 head bolts once. He sent his torque wrench to the nuke plant with a guy to test it for being on and everything. He did it the way I was taught and did not have to replace another one. At $10.00 a pop he wished he would have listened the first time. So you can do it what ever way you want but like I said it only takes a sec to do it this way.Dont loosen them all just one at a time The thought behind it is your motor gets heated up and the gasket settels and your torque may be off a little. The newer type gaskets with alum or steel on both sides usally dont need retorquing unless you want its kind of like the new cars and trucks you dont take them back for a retorque The main thing is as long as everything is straight and clean you usally dont have a problem. Hope it woprks out good for you. JON

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scott#2

09-18-2005 14:33:54

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to MagMan, 09-18-2005 13:21:52

Well, heres what I did, Sprayed Permatex Hi tack red, threw some WD on the threads, torqued it down to 65 in about 5 or 6 steps. The book said 45, the updated number said 80, so I comprimised and did 65 thinking that breaking them loose to re torque later might be a little easier. By the way I should have known better that to use WD instead of motor oil on the nuts threads. Trying to tell the click from the nut creaking got quite difficult.

scott#2

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CNKS

09-18-2005 18:00:21

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 14:33:54

Curious where you found the 45 lbs, all I have seen is 65 updated to 80. One link I read said to use 30W (preferred) or 10W-30 on the threads, best to clean the bolt threads and run a tap down the hole first.

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scott#2

09-19-2005 16:09:16

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to CNKS, 09-18-2005 18:00:21

Found the 45 in an old I&T shop service manual. All threads were spotless before tightning. I swear the torque on the bolts, when I took them off couldn't have been more than 40 - 45 ,kind of surprised me and the thing ran fine with no leaks. I plan the re torque to 85 after its been hot. WD is no good for lubing threads before the torque wrench goes on.

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MagMan

09-18-2005 10:18:59

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 10:14:36

They are saying to use a coating and retorque no matter what. Let her warm up and Shut her down then you will have to take the rocker off and retorque afterwards make sure you back them off a little then retorque dont just try to torque them to spec or you may break one. I use a spray coat for gaskets from Napa Its in a rattle can and its like a stickey red coating. JON

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scott#2

09-18-2005 10:22:28

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to MagMan, 09-18-2005 10:18:59

Are you saying back the head nuts off, then retorque and reassemble and re adjust the valves?
Thanks Jon,

scott#2

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CNKS

09-18-2005 10:39:17

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 10:22:28

Only my opinion, I see no reason to back the nuts off. If they are already at spec, you won't tighten them anymore with a properly set torque wrench. You will probably find that some will tighten a few pounds and others won't. Only possiliity of breaking them is if the shanks are excessively rusted. Some people advise not to use the old studs but to replace them. Yes readjust the valves, when warm.

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scott#2

09-18-2005 10:41:41

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to CNKS, 09-18-2005 10:39:17

Thanks guys,
The studs have some scale on the but not "overly rusted". I give it a shot this evening. Set them to 70 first then go to 80 after getting it going.

scott#2

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CNKS

09-18-2005 10:46:47

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to scott#2, 09-18-2005 10:41:41

Start at 20 or 30 and go up in 10-20 lb increments. 70 is way too much for an inital setting, if the head is off. Start in middle and work out in a circular pattern. Then repeat until you get to 80.

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CNKS

09-18-2005 10:50:34

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to CNKS, 09-18-2005 10:46:47

Perhaps you meant 70 was the final setting, and you were going to approach it gradually, but the initial torque before starting the engine should be 80, not 70, or you may have to do it 3 times -- or it may not make a penneys worth of difference, either.

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scott#2

09-18-2005 12:49:52

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Re: Head Gasket says: Sealer/Retorque Required ?? in reply to CNKS, 09-18-2005 10:50:34

Thanks CNKS.

You just never know with these old things. A manual I have said 45 lbs (a re-print from the time) When I took them off, It felt about like 45 or so and the gasket wasnt bad to begin with, just figured Id replace all ths gaskets while it was in pieces. Hopefully I can start spraying this week or next.

scott#2

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