electrical charging question on '41 H

A Cutout Relay is a smaller 2 wire device usually Generator mounted that has a BAT terminal wired to the ammeter and the GEN (or ARM) terminal wired to the Gens Armature post. On those systems the Gens Field post is wired to the switch.

A 3 wire Voltage Regulator has 3 terminals BAT ARM (or GEN) and FLD. BAT on VR wires to the ammeter,,,,, ,,,GEN (or ARM) on VR wires to Gens Armature post,,,,, ,,,,FLD on VR wires to Gens Field post.

I could post a long winded trouleshooting procedure for either (VR or cutout relay), but its easier and more understandable if you let me know which system you have.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

I went out to look at the H. Here's what I found:

on top of the generator is the cutout relay or voltage regulator. If you were sitting on the tractor you would see three electrical spade lugs on this box. Two lugs are at the front horizontally opposed to each other. The last lug is on the right side of the box at its rear.

Two wires lead from the box. Both are attached to the front two horizontally opposed lugs. The left side connection goes to the ammeter/switch box on the steering column. The right side goes to what appears to be the letter 'A' stamped on a terminal on the generator.

The only other interesting piece of information is the unused connecton at the rear of VR/cutout relay is stamped with the letter 'F', although the connections that have wires coming from them have no markings.

So, do I have the VR or cutout relay and what is the proper troubleshooting procedure?

Thanks,

Art

BAT on the VR wires to the load (NOT to battery) side of the ammeter.

ARM (or GEN) on VR wires to the Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR wires to the Gens Field post. When using a VR instead of a cutout relay, theres no wiring from the Gens Field post up to any light switch such as on most cutour relay systems.

To save time I will cut n past my generic Troubleshooting Procedure for use on Voltage Regulator systems some of which may repeat what Ive already said:::::::::

TROUBLESHOOTING NO CHARGE ON A CLASS A VOLTAGE REGULATOR CHARGING SYSTEM

If you havent polarized, you may wanna do that just to make sure it is!!!!! Temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case then momentarily flash jump a wire from the VR's BAT terminal over to its ARM (or GEN) terminal (or direct to ARM post on Gen) and you ought to get a spark. Always try the simple fixes first!!!!

1) For a good working Gen to get to and charge the battery, it has to have a path usually from the Gens ARM post output,,,,, ,,,,,to and through the cutout relay portion of the VR (between its ARM and BAT terminals),,,,, ,,,up to the Load (NOT to battery) side of the Ammeter,,,,, ,,,to and through the ammeter,,,,, ,,,,from BAT side of ammeter to ungrounded battery post, often via the starter lug post. Is yours wired that way or equivalent ??? The ammeter should read hot battery voltage on BOTH terminals, does yours??? Even if an ammeter were stuck (but still continuous) as RPM increases the battery voltage should rise from 12.6 to near 14 volts (half that on 6 volt systems) and/or the lights glow brighter. Have you tried that in case the ammeter isnt working right????? ?

2) If the above is so, the BAT terminal on the VR MUST ALWAYS READ HOT BATTERY VOLTAGE. Does yours??? If not, the Gen cant get to and charge the battery.

3) The Gen to VR wiring is as follows:

BAT on VR to ammeters load (NOT battery) side

ARM (or GEN) on VR to Gens Armature post.

FLD on VR to Gens Field post.

(L) Load (if you have a 4 wire VR) up to BAT supply input terminal on switch to feed loads like lights and ingition.

4. THE GEN AND VR MUST BE WELL GROUNDED AND THE BELT GOOD N TIGHT. If any doubt, run a ground wire from the grounded battery post or clean solid frame member direct to the Gen and see what happens????? ????? ????? ????? ????

NOW, if the Gen and VR are grounded,,,,,all is wired correct,,,,, ,,BAT terminal on VR is HOT,,,,, ,,Belt is tight,,,,, ,,,ammeter is good n continuous n works but she wont charge, have you had the batteries tested lately????? Is there electrolyte above all the plates and no cells have a gray or milky appearance????? A bad battery may not accept a charge you know!!!!! !! If she dont, proceed below to see if its a Gen or VR problem (AFTER you have insured the wiring per the above)

TO DETERMINE IF ITS A GEN OR VR PROBLEM

5. With the tractor running, temporarily ground the Gens Field post to case. If she charges then, the VR may be bad, or a wires missing from VR's Field post to the Field terminal on the VR, or the VR isnt well grounded.

6. If she still dont charge, leave Field grounded and jump a wire across from the VR's BAT and ARM terminals (jump by passes the cutout relay) and see if she charges. If then but not otherwise, the VR's cutout relay isnt working correct (maybe points burned/carboned/resistive)

7. With the 2 steps above, you have basically by passed the VR functions, so if she still dont charge, you're left with a bad battery or wiring or the Gen itself.

8. MOTOR TEST. You can Motor test the Gen. If its grounded and you remove the belt and apply hot battery voltage direct to its ARM Post, it should motor n run well (Armature n Brushes and Commutator okay). Then if you ground the Field and it slows down some, the Fields probably good. If it passes both those tests, it should charge, and if not, it may be a wirign or battery or grounding problem.

9. Typical Gen problems may be the brushes are worn down or the hold down spring assemblies are stuck/corroded/dirty and arent pushing the brushes tight down against the commutator. Chekc those things out. Worse may be bad fields or armature etc. Air and WD 40 etc can clean and free them, the hold downs must be free n snap and hold the brushes DOWN TIGHT.

SUMMARY: Check the wiring,,,,,the grounds,,,,, insure BAT on VR is hot,,,,, ,check battery (maybe load tested and Specific Gravity checked),,,,, ,,,good tight belt,,,,, ,insure ammeter is continuous (BOTH sides HOT),,,,, see if battery voltage rises above 12.6 and/or light glow brighter,,,,, ,,,do the Field and cutout relay VR by pass checks,,,,, ,,insure the Gens brushes arent worn down and the hold down springs are free n clean and push the brushes down tight,,,,, ,,,,,check the connections,,,,, ,,,try the Gen Motor Test to see if its good.

You may just have a bad battery or bad ground or connection if you say the Gen and VR are okay.

Good Luck n God Bless, let us all know.

John T Nordhoff, retired electrical engineer in Indiana

now I'm really confused.

I got the rebuilt generator with the new voltage regulator back onto my 41 H today. The problem persists - its still showing 15 amp discharge when the lights are on. So I took out my voltmeter and started checking things. The BAT terminal on the VR is hot (and obviously the wire from the ammeter to it), but the polarity is reversed! With the negative lead on the BAT terminal and the positive to ground I get just a shade under 6 volts.

So I opened up the switch box on the steering column. As far as I can tell, the cables from the VR to the ammeter and from the starter switch to the ammeter are wired correctly (according to my Binder manual). The battery cables also are correctly wired to the battery (If they were reversed the engine probably would crank in reverse but not fire).

So, what is backward? The only thing I can think of is to switch the wires on the ammeter. It won't look like the manual, but the current through the ammeter would flow in the opposite direction which would show a charge instead of a discharge

Art

Thanks for the troubleshooting info - I've taken the generator into a motor shop as it appears its the part not working. I should have it back in a few days

Art

Art

My>Link '40 H has a four position switch and a voltage regulator....