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SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP.

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farmallhal

08-29-2005 07:49:52




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Went to start my Super C yesterday and one short instant of sound then nothing. Tractor has been running really good and just got finished with a generator problem, and I don't think they are related in any way. I've done all the usual stuff like bad connections, clean terminals, etc. Have heavy guage battery terminals on the tractor - tractor has original 6 volt system. Have battery voltage 6.3 volts on the battery cable lug on the starter switch. Can be either the starter switch (mounted on the starter motor) or the starter motor itself. Is there a process to determine the culprit with the starter still on the tractor? Also, the auxillary hydraulic control valve to the fast hitch cylinder is mounted up close to the rear of the starter. Does this control valve need to be removed in order to get the starter off the tractor or will it drop down or move sideways and clear the valve? What is the procedure to keep from having a "Hytran shower" if the valve has to come off the Touch Control unit for the starter motor removal? Used the handcrank for first time in half a century to start tractor yesterday - one little upward pull and started right up. I looked at the IT manual and nothing there for servicing the starter and service manual is basically for the A and B models with a supplement for the C's. Different hydraulics so nothing there to help. Thanks for sharing your "been there - done that" learning experiences and trouble shooting processes.

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John T

08-29-2005 15:12:18




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to farmallhal, 08-29-2005 07:49:52  
Hal, Im not all that familiar with Farmalls, more experienced in Mother Deeres, but have found the problem often is EITHER the copper looking button/post on the starter OR the washer/contactor in the switch is pitted/burned/carboned up. If the starter post is all burned n pitted I have gotten temporary relief by cleaning n wire brushing n light filing it down smooth (If its burned/pitted too deep, it needs replaced) HOWEWVER, if the contactor/washer on the switch is burned or pitted or carboned up badly, it needs replaced.

Also, if theres any mechanical restrictions or limitations in the rod n linkage that prevents depressing the switch fully, that can cause arcing n carbon build up in the switch.

I dont have much luck by jumping direct with a big battery cable to the starter post, cuz it tends to arc badly and its hard to keep a good electrical connection. Also the real test is if the starters under a load as that direct jumnp test dont tell you as much if the starter is able to free spin unloaded.

Its possible for a starter to become mechanically stuck/jammed with its drive gear into the flywheel teeth, so check that out first by loosening n rockign before you try any starter jump tests.

A bench test can tell you some as the starter should torque kick pretty hard upon start and spin pretty fast and if not, shes obviously BAD, but thats not under a load so its no guarantee its still good just cuz she runs good not loaded.

If the starters not too bad, I have had luck simply by taking it apart and cleaning things up and polishing down and removing any film from the commutator.

Good luck n God Bless

John T in Indiana, retired electrical engineer

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farmallhal

08-30-2005 21:07:13




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to John T, 08-29-2005 15:12:18  
John, just to provide closure to this problem. Removed starter motor and switch and had them checked today. Both were fine on the test bench. Put them back on the tractor and nothing just like yesterday. Battery voltage was 6.13 volts at the battery and also at the starter. Changed battery to an old one I had taken out of a H when I converted it to a 12 volt alternator system last fall. Battery had been setting on a bench for the past 9 months or so but started the Super C right up even though it was quite weak. I now have it one the charger for the night and will see how it holds up. Appears to be one of those cases where the voltage is OK but the amps are gone. It was a 9 month old Interstate Workaholic battery with a CCA rating of 750 or more. Thought you would like to see what I found out in resolving the problem. Thanks for your post. Hal

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farmallhal

08-29-2005 15:40:35




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to John T, 08-29-2005 15:12:18  
Thanks John for your response. I'll check that all out but the starter is not locked onto the flywheel as I can hand crank start it quite easily. I'm certain it is the switch or starter motor and if the starter is as easy to remove from the tractor as noted by an earlier post I'll just remove it. We have a very good starter and generator man in town and repairs are quite reasonable. Had to rebuild my M starter a few months ago with sort of the same symptoms - problem was weak brush springs. They just aren't made to last a 100 years I guess. If IH had made them they might have but they are a Delco-Remy part. Thanks again for your response. Hal

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DCTX

08-29-2005 08:20:30




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to farmallhal, 08-29-2005 07:49:52  
1-To remove the starter you do not do anything to the hydraulic unit. Remove the starter bolts and ease the starter out.
2-Your starter may be locked. Mine does this at random. I loosen the bolts, jiggle the starter until unlocked-making sure transmission is in neutral-turn on switch and try starter. If it works retighted bolts. I carry a wrench in my tool box for this. Some people put in 4th gear and rock rear wheels.
3-Your starter switch-on the starter-may need cleaning. Only done this once in 11 years.
4-Last but not least, your starter may need work done on it. If all else fails take it to a reputable starter/generator shop. They will will test it and repair as necessary. If the starter tests out okay usually there is no cost. 5-I am sure you will get plenty of good advice on this site-I have found it invaluable.

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farmallhal

08-29-2005 15:54:16




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to DCTX, 08-29-2005 08:20:30  
Thanks for your response. Have you previously removed a starter from a fast hitch Super C with the auxillary valve attached to the right side of the Touch Control unit? This valve is right behind the starter and there is not even a 1/2" of clearence. There just isn't a lot of possible movement to the rear. I'm guessing the starter has a "snoot" like my M which I had out not long ago. Maybe once it is unbolted from the frame there is some movement away from the engine which would clear the aux. valve when moved toward the rear of the tractor for removal. I'm certainly hoping I don't have to remove some of the hydraulics to get it out. Just trying to know what I'm up against before turning some wrenches. The starter is not locked to the flywheel as I can very easily hand crank start the tractor. I'm certain it is either the switch or starter motor. Thanks for your post and any other information you might have to share. Hal

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DC-TX

08-30-2005 03:17:58




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to farmallhal, 08-29-2005 15:54:16  
Hal: I have the very same configuration as you have described. Yes I have removed the starter more times than I care to think about. I know it is close but believe me, it will come right out once you remove the bolts. I am not good with electrical problems, have a great neighbor for that. But, it seems to me that if you are getting proper current to the starter post with the switch on, you have narrowed the problem to two areas-Either the starter button(?) attached to the top of the starter or a bad starter. Good luck. DC

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farmallhal

08-30-2005 20:19:56




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to DC-TX, 08-30-2005 03:17:58  
DC, Thanks for all your help and the assurance it could be removed. I got it off this morning with little problem. That vertical hydraulic 1/4" piece of pipe would move out and away from the tractor and permitted the starter to come back enough to drop down for removal. It would have even been easier if the switch was taken off first. I had the starter and switch tested and they were both fine. Came back home and reinstalled them and found I had a battery with normal voltage but no amps. Put in an old 6 volt I had taken out of a different tractor last fall and hooked it up. Tractor started right up even though the battery had very little kick. I have it on a 6 volt charger for the evening and I'll see how much it will recover or will just buy new one. The bad one on the Super C is less then a year old and was installed by the previous owner before I bought the tractor. Just wanted to close this out with you and I'm thinking I have this under control. A good day for a Farmall learning. Have a great Labor Day weekend and thanks for your posts. Hal in Missouri.

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farmallhal

08-30-2005 05:17:31




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to DC-TX, 08-30-2005 03:17:58  
DC, Thanks for the confirmation. I will try later today to remove it. Just looks so close but most service issues I've run across to date on these old Farmalls they were indeed owner friendly when it came time to maintain or repair components. Hal



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Bob M

08-29-2005 08:01:16




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to farmallhal, 08-29-2005 07:49:52  
Hal - Sounds like the starter switch has failed (it"s not uncommon...).

Pull the grounded cable off the battery (for safety!) then remove the switch from the starter Reconnect the battery ground cable and attach a jumper cable to the ungrounded battery post. Now take the free end of the jumper and hit it on the copper contact button on the starter. (Expect a spark!).

If the starter works when you jumper it, the starter switch (and possibly the contact button on the starter) need to be replaced. And if nothing happens the starter is the problem. ...Bob M

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farmallhal

08-29-2005 08:13:03




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 Re: SUPER C STARTER PROBLEM - NEED HELP. in reply to Bob M, 08-29-2005 08:01:16  
Bob, I knew there had to be a test to verify the bad component. Didn't want to bother you off-line since you got me through the generator problem and needed a break. Generator output on the ammeter is now about 1/2 scale so battery is being brought up to charge. Thanks for the note and will need more help if starter has to come off in response to the other questions. Have a good one and hope you enjoyed your weekend show. Hal

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