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Why Pos Ground

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Ia Gary

08-11-2005 05:48:38




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Is there a reason they set up the older tractors with pos grounds.




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Janicholson

08-11-2005 06:53:53




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Ia Gary, 08-11-2005 05:48:38  
There is a difference, but it is totally irrelevant. Ask a certified AWS welder, sparks from a positive electrode, to a negative work piece (Reverse Polarity in Welding terms)Polarity changes the amount of heat going into the workpiece. In straight polarity, the majority of the heat is directed toward the workpiece. In reverse polarity, the heat is concentrated on the electrode. (Modern Welding Text).
With that said, the materials in modern plugs, and less lead in the fuels (yes lead is hard on plugs)lets them last 5 times longer than of old. it makes no appreciable difference at the plug.
Because the jump starting of vehicles incorrectly is dangerous/expensive/useless, and because probably less than 10% of the people (Im being optimistic)know how to jump correctly with real jumper cables with fat wire, and because sourcing for electrical components beacme less propriatary (outsourced), the move was made to standardize on neg. ground.
Hope it helps!
Jim Nicholson

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Bob

08-11-2005 07:41:33




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Janicholson, 08-11-2005 06:53:53  
The polarity of the spark at the plug is determined by how the coil is hooked up.

Convention has it that the leading edge of the spark pulse to the plugs shall be negative, and this can be achieved by proper connection of the coil, irregardless as to whether the battery is connected for (+) ground, or (-) ground.



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Farmall450man

08-11-2005 10:34:31




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Bob, 08-11-2005 07:41:33  
So if a vehicle is switched from positive ground to negitive ground, should the coil be connected as the terminals are marked or should the coil connection be reversed?



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John T

08-11-2005 12:52:02




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Farmall450man, 08-11-2005 10:34:31  
The coil can still "work" REGARDLESS if its leads are swapped. HOWEVER, it will work better and more efficient with less heat losses if its wired CORRECT. Thats due to the physical direction and orientation of its windings. If current flows one way the magnetic field generated one end is N with the other S, while if reversed they swap, and the coil was designed for one certain way, although she can still spark though not as efficient if wired bass ackwards as theres still mutual inductive coupling taking place.

BOTTOM LINE if its a 6 volt coil or a 12 thats not internally ballasted, YESSSSS S when I change battery polarity I reverse the coil leads.

Good Luck n God Bless Yall

John T

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John T

08-11-2005 06:17:45




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Ia Gary, 08-11-2005 05:48:38  
Gary, I recently posted this over on another board. Before things became standardized at Negative ground in the auto industry some like Ford and Chrysler I believe ran at Positive grund while GM was negative. Some of the reasons Ive read of or heard over the years were:

Positive ground caused less galvanic corrosion where metallic frame members were joined.

Points lasted longer and less pitting at Positive ground.

Its easier to emit electrons from a hotter (plugs electrode) to a relatively cooler (plugs ground strap) surface, Similar to in a vacuum tube where a heater warms up the cathode which emits electrons to the cooler plate.

And finally another Gentleman posted he heard there was less Radio Frequency Interference (RFI) if the frame was at Positive ground.

No warranty on none of this I never actually researched it just recall articles etc over the years which I, unfortunately, didnt save.

John T Nordhoff in Indiana, retired electrical engineer who usually lurks on the Deere pages versus over here on the dark side lol

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Bob M

08-11-2005 06:53:02




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to John T, 08-11-2005 06:17:45  
Hey John T – welcome to the IHC board! I must warn however most here will agree you are a visitor FROM the dark side rather than TO it…lol…)

----

Anyway you summarize the majority of the arguments alleging the superiority of positive over negative ground.

One more I’ve heard on occasion: Here in the snowy northeast (where it’s winter except July & August…) positive grounded vehicles experience road salt-induced body corrosion at slower rate than do negative grounded.

However despite all the reasons given, there is no compelling physical theory (or practical evidence) making one ground polarity superior to the other. Both work equally well!

...Bob M (still employed mechanical engineer with a minor in electrical engineering.)

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John T

08-11-2005 14:32:08




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Bob M, 08-11-2005 06:53:02  
Thanks Bob, good to see you here on the dark side lol and always fun to read your informative posts.

John T



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El Toro

08-11-2005 08:25:53




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Bob M, 08-11-2005 06:53:02  
Now I see why those troubleshooting flow charts are so good. Hal



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Dellbertt

08-11-2005 06:16:55




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Ia Gary, 08-11-2005 05:48:38  
Air Force electronic schools teach DC Current flow exactly opposite to civilian. Flowing from pos to neg opposed to neg to pos. Actually I don"t look at it as flowing at all. Electric charge is just the potential to do work. It"s like the sound in the forest. There"s always sound waves but never any sound unless there is a receiver to make the sound. The starter on your tractor does not care which wire is grounded it will always turn the right direction. (But your generator does care)

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Hubert

08-13-2005 17:49:06




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Dellbertt, 08-11-2005 06:16:55  
I recently purchased 1951 M Farmall, and the battery was hooked up w/ negative ground,--is that correct?



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John T

08-11-2005 06:26:36




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Dellbertt, 08-11-2005 06:16:55  
Good point Dellbert, back at Purdue many moons ago we used the conventions of Conventional Current flowed from Pos to Neg (like outside the battery) while Electron Current (like inside the battery) flowed Neg to Pos. I tried to teach my kids when they studied science theres no such thing as voltage on a single point theres a voltage potential difference BETWEEN TWO POINTS and its between them current seeks a path to flow. The higher the voltage the worse the curent really wants to flow.

I certainly agree the tractor DC starters turn the same direction regardless of polarity cuz youre not reversing the relative N/S polarities of the Field versus the Armature. However in those light cheap low torque permanent magnet motors (dont use a current induced electromagnetic Field) if polarity were reversed they indeded would run bass ackwards.

I love this sparky chat

John T

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JT

08-11-2005 07:43:37




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to John T, 08-11-2005 06:26:36  
John,
I am not a whiz at this electrical thing, but I do know if you hook a DC motor backwards it will run backward. We have customers come in with lawn tractors that will not start, they have a new battery, they went to to the local battery store, picked up a battery, it was backward, they hooked the cables up the same position as the old one, not knowing they were putting neg. cable on pos term and pos cable on neg term, the starter then would turn backward.

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John T

08-11-2005 12:38:26




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to JT, 08-11-2005 07:43:37  
JT, youre right and I agree. As I said, small permanent magnet motors DO RUN BASS ACKWARDS if polarity is reversed. HOWEVER, DC Motors like most all tractor starter motors which have electromagnetic field windings (i.e. NOT permanent magnet fields) WILL RUN THE SAME DIRECTION EVEN IF REVERSED.

The reason is to reverse the motor you have to change the N/S polarity orientation BETWEEN the Armature and Field (reverse current flow direction in either) which a simple polarity swap in an electromagnetic field motor doesnt accomplish. The reason reversing polarity in a permanent magnet motor makes em run backwards is cuz youre changing the magnetic polarity in the armature by reversing current flow direction while the permanent magnetic field stays the same.

Clear as mud ???

John T retired electrical engineer

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JT

08-11-2005 16:41:45




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to John T, 08-11-2005 12:38:26  
John T,
Now, it makes sense, I can at least understand why you cannot change them all, thanks for info. Never too late to learn something.
Jim



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Bob

08-11-2005 07:57:45




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to JT, 08-11-2005 07:43:37  
JT,

Your observation is correct only part of the time!

DC motors, with WOUND FIELDS, such as conventional starter motors, DO NOT reverse when the battery polarity is reversed.

That is why you can change a tractor or old car from (+) ground, over to (-) ground, the starter will operate correctly. Also, older motors, such as older heater and fan motors will not reverse with a polarity reversal.

What you have observed is small-engine starter motors that have a PERMANENT MAGNET FIELD. They will reverse when their power supply polarity is reversed. Also, most NEWER heater fan motors are permanent magnet field units, and will reverse when the power supply polarity is changed.

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JT

08-11-2005 08:08:46




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Bob, 08-11-2005 07:57:45  
Bob, As I said, my electrical knowledge is enough to get me in deep doodoo at times. Yes all these little motors are permanent magnet starters, so what you say is proabably correct and beyond my ability to debate over it.:>)
Jim



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RustyFarmall

08-11-2005 06:05:57




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 Re: Why Pos Ground in reply to Ia Gary, 08-11-2005 05:48:38  
All of the older tractors, cars, and trucks were set up as positive ground. It was considered state of the art at that time.



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