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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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F12/F14 Timing/fail to start

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DA@STL

07-12-2005 18:47:36




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OK guys, I've been visiting this site for the last 3 yrs or so and gained a lot of info from my visits. I have just completely restored an F12/F14. Totally, bolt for bolt except for the fuel pump rod and a carbureator rebuild. I have installed all new seals, bearings, gaskets, rods, crank and rod bearings. Double and triple checked the timing, valve settings, and have a good condenser and spark at each and every one of the spark plugs. Primed all of the fuel lines, retarded the spark at different spots, choked the carb several times. I still cannot get the engine to fire. I've even got the clutch strapped so the main drive shaft to the trans. does not turn. What am I missing? I've got new spark plugs ordered that will be here tomorrow. I have not been able to get hold of Rice Equipment to order the pushrod for the fuel pump. Will keep trying. (Vacation?) What do I do next? Drag it down the street? Any help would be appreciated.

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kelsh

07-21-2005 12:42:25




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
My F-12 wouldnt start last winter. What I found was a combo problem of no fuel and weak spark. After I strained my brain cells and from info on this site I got her running. Under the distributor cap on the mageto is a little copper disk that was all mucked up from corrision. I cleaned that up. On the mag body that mates up to this little copper disk is a stiff spring that makes electrical contact to the dist. cap. The houseing that holds this spring was broken and not keeping the spring in line with the copper disk. That was the main problem. Fixed that and then I had sparks a flying at the plugs! It is call the "secondary leadout spring" and is replaceable or repairable

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James Williams

07-13-2005 14:07:38




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
I have done 3 F12/14 tractors that were actually parts junk.I"ve had problems with flooding,untill I figured out the fuel pump was pushing more fuel than the orginial pump ??? and seemed like gas was being pushed through the neddle valve.I drilled the tube out where the gas returned back to the tank,and it worked great.Also if you are using the same gas lines i"ll bet you have dirt in your carb.

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KevinH

07-13-2005 10:12:10




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
One last comment on whether it's a fuel or fire problem. These tractors(or mine, anyway) do not un-flood easily. I would stay away from dumping fuel down the barrel(my opinion). If yours has only a pipe plug drain in the carb, I would replace it with a valve that will let you check to see if there is fuel in the bowl. With a downdraft carb, if there's fuel in the bowl, odds are good that it's getting to the engine. Once again, good luck!

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El Toro

07-13-2005 03:37:33




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
Crank the engine over until No1 piston is on the compression stroke at TDC and your timing mark is
is aligned. Remove the cap and see where the rotor is pointing. Should be at No1 plug wire.
Be sure to hold a thumb over the plug hole so you feel that compression. You may be 180 degrees out of time. Hal

PS: I always had the wife to help when doing this.



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Pete in Holland, MI

07-12-2005 21:46:13




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
Several good comments thus far. Need to separate if it is a gas or spark problem.

Gas -

Squirt some gas down the carb or a few teaspoons directly in a couple cylinders & crank. Coughs & sputters, then quits, tis a gas problem.

Electrical -

If after the test above, nothing happens, spark or timing may be the problem. Pull all the plugs. Crank engine slowly till #1 cylinder is coming up on compression (thumb over hole pressure test). With mag fully retarded, inspect piston thru hole and verify mag trips at TDC. Rotate the engine 2 full revolutions again but stop just short of TDC. Remove the distributor cap and note that the contact on the fiber gear is around the 1:30 -2:00 position, and that the wire from the upper right of the distributor heads to the #1 cylinder. This exercise verifys timing and proper wire to the cylinder.

My F-12 starts on the first or 2nd quarter turn most every time. Don't need the choke unless starting in the winter.

Good luck. Let us know what you found.

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DA@STL

07-13-2005 17:45:24




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to Pete in Holland, MI, 07-12-2005 21:46:13  
A little update. According to the info I have the float is set for 3/4 full. I have a new pushrod, float valve seat, and carberutor gasket on order. I've installed the new plugs. One interesting thing, I didn't find any gas in the carb or the lines. I've already rebuilt the fuel pump, tore it apart today to see if I had the new check valves in correctly (yes) and bench tested it. Seems to work fine. So awaiting new parts and will reprime the lines and then crank her over. BTW, she was running before I started the rehab, so I don't think I'm too far off on the original settings. I'll keep you posted.

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KevinH

07-13-2005 20:25:06




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-13-2005 17:45:24  
Is your tractor gas only or multi-fuel? Also, does it have the vent that sticks out through the hood just to the front of the gas tank? One more thing you can check is to make sure you have all your fuel lines tight(no air/fuel leaks) between the pump and the carb. A leaky fitting here can cause your fuel pump to not get fuel up(and its a long way up to that carb). Make sure(if you haven't already) that fuel has an unobstructed path all the way from the tank to the carb. Feel free to email if I might be of any help. kharbin(at)nctv.com

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DA@STL

07-13-2005 06:44:02




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to Pete in Holland, MI, 07-12-2005 21:46:13  
Good comments! I'm going to go back through the timing AGAIN! It looks right but it will be worth checking. I can't even get a burp out of her even pouring gas down the carb. It's gotta be timing or plugs. I pick up the new plugs today. May just buy the other set too. I'll let you know how it turns out.



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kfox

07-12-2005 20:35:12




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
I'd try letting it set overnight and then dumping 2 or three tablespoons of gas down the carb and then crank away, If it fires a few licks you have fuel/ carb problem, if it doesn't fire, you have ignition problem. It's been over 20 years since I rebuilt a couple of F-12s, but never had any problems getting them to run if everything was close to being right. One thing I Remember is that there are two simular marks on the flywheel. One is the timing mark, and I don't remember what the other one was for. You need to get the right mark to set the timing. Make sure the impulse coupling in the mag is working also. ken

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John M

07-12-2005 19:08:50




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
If you dont have the push rod for the fuel pump in,how are you getting gas to the carb? No gas,no start!



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DA@STL

07-12-2005 19:28:10




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to John M, 07-12-2005 19:08:50  
I'm using the original pushrod. BTW this engine was running before I started the restore. I'm maybe thinking with all of the new parts, things have changed.



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KevinH

07-12-2005 19:02:25




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 18:47:36  
Been there with a '35 F12 and I feel your pain. It took me 3 years to finally get mine right. The culprit? Gap. Plug and magneto...mine would fire beautifully out of the cylinder, but wouldn't crank with the plugs in for anything. Mag points on an F4 should be .013 and the plugs I think are .020-.025. The plug gap was my biggest problem. Also, open the drain on your carb and see if you have fuel. If you do, most likely your pump is not the problem. Good luck, Kevin

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DA@STL

07-12-2005 19:33:30




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to KevinH, 07-12-2005 19:02:25  
I've rechecked and rechecked the point gap in the mag. It definitely is .013". You are right on the plugs. The OEM calls for .020-.025". They are correct. I even checked for spark by removing the plug wire from #1 and putting it close to a ground. Excellent spark! Right now I think I will replace the existing Champion W14 plugs with the OEM recommended Champion #1 and see what happens. If nothing else, I can get the neighbor to drag me down the road.

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John M

07-13-2005 03:17:32




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 19:33:30  
OK,I agree with Kevin as I have for 5 years fopught and battled with mine to get it running right without flooding and choking me to death when it does run,but..... my probelm I think was the carb and float.Spec is 1 27/32-29/32,I sett mine at like 1 3/4.We pulled it out to the house from the barn and I tried to start it by pulling and within a few feet she was flooded.I let it sit overnite,pulled the plugs and cleaned them,set the float,and on the third pull she fired right off and ran like a Farmall and has been fine since.I have switvhed to the 3077 Autolites and that has made it even better.Oh and something else,you souldnt need the choke but maybe,maybe one crank.

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John M....one more thing

07-13-2005 03:18:38




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to John M, 07-13-2005 03:17:32  
You do know choke is in not out like on other farmalls,right.



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DDDA@STL

07-13-2005 17:37:45




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to John M....one more thing, 07-13-2005 03:18:38  
Yep, I remember that from the old days.



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KevinH

07-12-2005 19:49:53




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 Re: F12/F14 Timing/fail to start in reply to DA@STL, 07-12-2005 19:33:30  
I would think of trying an Autolite 3077 or 3076 plug.Not trying to start the 'PLUG WARS', but if you're gonna try a new plug, these 2 are my personal favorites. The A10 downdraft carb is also NOTORIOUS for flooding(ask JohnM, we can both vouch for that). If you can get it started by pulling it, notice when it starts if it belches out lots of smoke, which would hint at flooding. Just a thought.

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