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Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration

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Scott Swanson

06-20-2005 09:14:32




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Hey!! Here is the story:

Have a Farmall C. Runs well...without the air cleaner attached. Purrs.

When I bolt the air cleaner up and attach it to the carb with the radiator type hose...it will not start. I soaked it in gas and still no deal. I am close to yanking the goofy looking screen out of there with a pair of vicegrips. Why dd they make them non-removable?

Any suggestions?

Is my carb set so lean that when I hook up the aircleaner is leans it out so that no gas/air mix goes through?

Help is appreciated, greatly!

Scott

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Charles Taylor

06-21-2005 09:29:06




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
I had this same problem with an IH M Farmall tractor. I found a very small hole had rusted from the exhaust manifold into the intake manifold.The engine could start & run without the air cleaner but any air cleaner will stop the engine. "Also" this can cause a fire if you stop the engine with no air cleaner connected.
Maby this can help someone else.



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Heat houser

06-20-2005 21:30:11




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
Check your rubber hoses. The inner casing may be sucking shut while the outer casing looks fine. This can happen when the inner part of the hose pulls loose, (delaminates) from the outer.



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John M

06-20-2005 15:44:50




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
Hook the thing up,leave the top off and see if it runs.If so put you hand over the hole and see what happens,it should suck you hand down.But to answer your question yes it can be done,my Dad done it on a m many years ago and stuffed it with some kind of stuff he use to get at work.he still put oil in the bottom and this stuff he put in it was changed every year.



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lee

06-20-2005 14:59:00




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
What is inside one of those old oil bath air cleaners? Anyone ever cut one apart? You've probably plugged it up further by trying to clean it. Dumb example from lawn mower experience. If you soak a foam air cleaner element in fuel to clean it you will need to get it dried out real good or it will starve the engine of air. I suspect you just need to get that thing flushed real good and then dried out real good. But don't hook it up to a vacuum cleaner!!!!!

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captaink

06-21-2005 08:34:00




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to lee, 06-20-2005 14:59:00  
I took the one on my M apart several years ago. We ground off the spot welds that held the bottom in and pulled out the guts. In it was a tightly wrapped wire mesh of varying size, if I remember right the largest was about ¼ inch square. In the wires we found a lot of red “bee’s wings” from shelling a lot of corn back in those days. We unrolled the wire and spent literally hours cleaning it and re rolling it up and stuffing it back in. I then spot welded the bottom back on. Doing this was absolutely no fun at all. A lot of tedious work, and the only thing we really found in there was from the tractor setting on the corn sheller for many years. Unless that C was used for something similar I rally do not thing the air cleaner is the issue, but the plumging.

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captaink

06-20-2005 13:40:25




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
I doubt you are leaning the fuel mixture out when you add the air cleaner. There is a restriction somewhere in the air cleaner or plumbing leading to the carburetor. Since you mentioned that you have three of these air cleaners the chances of all of them being bad are slim. Is the hose between the carburetor and air cleaner kinked? Is the choke moving to the closed position when you put the air cleaner on?

Just some long shots here, hope it helps!

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captaink

06-20-2005 13:40:24




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
I doubt you are leaning the fuel mixture out when you add the air cleaner. There is a restriction somewhere in the air cleaner or plumbing leading to the carburetor. Since you mentioned that you have three of these air cleaners the chances of all of them being bad are slim. Is the hose between the carburetor and air cleaner kinked? Is the choke moving to the closed position when you put the air cleaner on?

Just some long shots here, hope it helps!

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Dixieland

06-20-2005 13:20:07




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
Hang on there Scott. If your carburetor ain"t gittin no air through the air filter try using your hand in place of the air filter and see how much air you can cut off before it stops. In other words make sure the filter is actually stopped up and that is the problem. I know you have probably already done this but if not it is a good way to see for sure it is the filter. If it is stopped up, run mineral spirits, kerosene, or deisel fuel through the screen both ways and see if it brings anything out. Don"t mess up that filter by tearing the screen out.

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Andy Martin

06-20-2005 11:44:50




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
You never said you verified the air cleaner is plugged. You jsut said it would not start with it installed.

Can you see it is plugged?

Can you get air flow through it with all the unbolt pieces removed?



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FC

06-20-2005 11:01:03




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
Look for something else that could be causing the problem - sometimes the problem is not very obvious. Example - I removed a transmission and replaced a clutch on a truck and when I put everything back it would not start. How could removing a trans and replacing the clutch cause it not to start? The simple fact was that I pinched a wire going to the fuel pump and blew the fuse. I could have spent days trying to find the problem, but I discovered the blown fuse rather quickly which kind of gave me an indication that I had shorted something out. I know this may not help much, but sometimes you have to look beyond the obvious. Good luck - I know your frustration.

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Pharmall

06-20-2005 09:24:47




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:14:32  
I assume you have the original-type air cleaner that uses the oil bath at the bottom? If the oil has trapped enough dirt it may need to be cleaned out.



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Scott Swanson

06-20-2005 09:31:25




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Pharmall, 06-20-2005 09:24:47  
Way beyond that thank you.

Outside of the inner secret cavern, you could eat off that aircleaner. I soaked it in gas for four hours. I am thinking of yanking the inner screen stuff out and shoving some simple air cleaner foam up in there like a tampon. Life will be good when I finally figure this one out. Jeepers!!!!

Simple Problem!
Complicated Answer!

Is there an aftermarket air cleaner system out there for Farmalls? If not...I am designing them RIGHT NOW.

Any takers? Any suggestions?
How about a joint venture?

Oil Bath Systems Suck....literally.

Scott

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CNKS

06-20-2005 16:52:17




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:31:25  
I have seen many oil bath air cleaners, I have seven at the moment, they all work fine. You have some other problem.



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Andy Martin

06-20-2005 09:52:12




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 09:31:25  
The oil bath air cleaner is the best available. They went to paper cartridges only to save money. Don't damage your air cleaner, it is valuable.

I suspect you have a mud dauber's nest in the connecting pipe, or the inside of the rubber hose is damaged and is blocking the flow, or the inlet on top of the air cleaner is pushed down too far on the inlet pipe, or you have an intake leak which is bypassing the carburetor with just a little more restriction.

Try the air cleaner without the cup on the bottom. If that helps, then the restriction is in the inlet side of the air cleaner. I have never seen a plugged mesh (inner screen) in one of these.

With your tractor running, hold your hand over the carburetor inlet. It should try to suck your hand in and not just die. If there is not much suction you have an air leak.

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randy hall

06-20-2005 10:17:43




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Andy Martin, 06-20-2005 09:52:12  
paper elements are far more efficient than the old oil bath ones.



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Andy Martin

06-20-2005 11:36:43




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to randy hall, 06-20-2005 10:17:43  
I strongly disagree. Where do you get your information from?

I'll believe it if it is SAE test results.



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JakeF

06-20-2005 20:18:46




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Andy Martin, 06-20-2005 11:36:43  
An oil bath is nearly as efficient as a paper element when it is flowing the CFM it was desighned for. When the engine is at low speed and not drawing anywhere near the amount of air that the oil bath was desighned for they don't have the turbulence to keep the oil moving around and scrub the dirt from the air efficiently. They are a viable air cleaner for stationary engines that have a fixed load and propperly sized air cleaner, but don't do nearly as well on a variable load such as a chore tractor that runs at a low load/CFM most of the time. Jake

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Scott Swanson

06-20-2005 10:01:28




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Andy Martin, 06-20-2005 09:52:12  
Been there.

I am giving up. I am going to buy an aftermarket system designed for Ford rangers with 4.0 liter engines. I have three of the air cleaners for the C/Super C. Something is wrong...probably me.

Frustration is better than sitting around watching Oprah.

Maybe I will try again.

Thanks for the help Guys!!!!!

Scott



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Nat

06-20-2005 11:25:41




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 10:01:28  
How are you verifying that there's airflow through the air cleaner?

Frustration does funny things to people, like cause them to assume something because it's "obvious." Can you blow air through the air cleaner from the carb end, and have it come out through the wire mesh?

There are only two possibilities:
1. The air cleaner, or the pipe running from it to the carburetor, is clogged.
2. The engine is so weak and tired that it can't pull air through the air cleaner.

#2 is so unlikely that it's laughable. 99.9% chance that it's #1. Take the air cleaner and the pipe off the tractor. Pull the oil cup off. Get out the blow gun and a rag, wrap the rag around the blow gun until you can stuff it into the pipe with a decent seal. Get the air compressor all pumped up and give 'er a good shot of air. You should get air blowing out through the mesh.

I bet you won't.

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Scott Swanson

06-20-2005 11:30:11




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Nat, 06-20-2005 11:25:41  
How do you get air blowing from the carb side to the cleaner side?

I soaked it in gas for 4 hours. Should I have it steam cleaned? I want to yank the screen stuff out of there.

Scott



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Nat

06-20-2005 12:03:01




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 11:30:11  
But, the question remains: Have you tried to force air through it? Soaking it with gas won't necessarily break up whatever's stuck up in there.



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Scott Swanson

06-20-2005 12:07:29




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Nat, 06-20-2005 12:03:01  
No! I threw it on the roof and watched it roll down to the gutter. It runs purrrfect without it.

When I hook it up, it lowers the rpm's down until it stops. Either it starves the tractor of air completely or it changes the air/gas mixture enough to stop combustion.

I will try the backflush with air next weekend. If that does not work, I am yanking the screen out and stuffing it with air cleaner sponge.

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Nat

06-20-2005 12:17:58




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 12:07:29  
Go ahead, but stuffing the thing full of foam isn't going to make it run any better. Given the size of the can, if the tractor has to pull air through a foot or more of foam, it's reeeeeally going to have to suck hard to get any air. It'd be like putting a couch cushion over your face and trying to breathe through it.

The mesh inside the air cleaner provides very little resistance to airflow. It has to be clogged with something that shouldn't be up in there.

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Nebraska Cowman

06-20-2005 10:33:36




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Scott Swanson, 06-20-2005 10:01:28  
Don't give up Scott. Those oil bath cleaners are the best. Look elsewhere for your trouble



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Janicholson

06-20-2005 12:19:38




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 Re: Scratching my Sunburned head in frustration in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 06-20-2005 10:33:36  
Try this before gutting the best air cleaner made!
with cleaner off, start engine (you said it was not a problem)
Attach the rubber hose only (not attached to Air cleaner) If still running attach air cleaner housing (holding it in your hands, not bolted on)
if still running, put the oil cup w/oil on the bottom. If still running try bolting it on. If still runing all is well. If it stopped, maybe you streched a wire or crimped something. These things don't break.
If you have fuel in the aircleaner mesh, and it is not entirely dried out, it will be flooded beyond starting just from the excess evaporation. it must be dry of fuel.
Good luck, don't give up. JimN

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