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OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S

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Farmallkid From

05-06-2005 11:49:35




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Hi, we have the H tore apart, the engine is in the machine shop to get 2 under off the crank, and whatever else they do, we have the month of may off so the leaders can get get crops in, and for us to do some homework. Each member has to find-The pattern to torque head bolts, and how much to torqe them to. spark plug clearance, how to time the engine. prices on new or used or both ,block,head, set of high compression rings,complete set of gaskets, and cost of primer and paint, one 4l can of each. and the toque specs on rod caps wheel bolts and any other bolts that might have to be toqued, and the valve settings, Also the hot and cold torque specs for any of the above. Now i will look in my i and t manual for some stuff and ask here abouit some stuff so now i am going to ask a ?.

Timing of Motor(How is it done), I need a step by step follow through of how to time an H engine, just as you would tell someone who has never done it before, Like myself, The more posts the better! Thanks

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farmallman

05-08-2005 13:52:21




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
ain't that cheating cuz???? :)
i'll say!

get a manual and do it the way everyone else has to do it....

to bad u weren't fixing up an M...u'd be pro after all the times u broke urs.....ha ha

good luck....c ya soon



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gene (Missouri)

05-07-2005 22:32:46




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
Great 4-H project.

When you get the engine back from the machine shop. I'm assuming you are installing the crank yourself. Double check the timing marks on the timing gears. DOUBLE CHECK THE TIMING MARKS ON THE TIMING GEARS. You won't find out you've made a mistake until you have the engine assembled and back in the tractor.

If you don't have a parts manual get one. This will show you how the parts go together.

Gene

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Farmallkid From Ont,

05-07-2005 17:57:31




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
My dad always told me he learned way more out of 4-H than he did out of shcool, now i believe him even more!



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dr.sportster

05-07-2005 07:52:25




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
Whenever you do a project where something is disassembled and reassembled keep you own notebook for writing things down.Even if you have the service manuals there are many things not covered in them and your notes will come in very handy later on.Record things like any non factory parts used,piston oversize,etc etc.Even things that may seem trivial at the time will be usefull later.This is good for ordering parts for a second rebuild also.In the back of the notebook keep receipts and names and addresses of suppliers.Print wiring diagrams etc off the web -keep in the notebook.List tasks to be done in the front of the book and put a checkmark when each is done.This increases job satisfaction also.Try to make some progress each day if only for a short time.Write to tool manufacturers for litterature and try to attent shows for ideas and to see correctly restored tractors.Bring a camera to shows for reference photos and file in notebook or glue to poster board in the shop.Most of all try to do things right so labor is not wasted and ultimatly have fun while you learn.Mechanics is the greatest hobby there is for fun and learning.The great and famous artist Von Dutch who was a master pinstriper and machinist/mechanic said there is no better feeling than firing up an engine that you have rebuilt yourself.Beer and weed will make you stupid and ruin your workmanship so avoid that and people who will drag you down with them.Have fun.Good luck.

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Michael Soldan

05-06-2005 22:10:16




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
Hi Mitch, looks like your simple question started something here. Having come out of 31 years of teaching I have to say that some of our friends here are over looking the fact that you are first computer literate, a very important life skill. Secondly you own gumption and zeal for learning have been exhibited here on this forum many times. Third , you know more about tractors, machinery and good country living than literally every teenage person who lives in an urban area. Fourth , your character has been a result of your home life and education in the class and around tractors and machinery. The life skills that you have exhibited entitle you to ask a question here without being judged. I cannot agree with Cowman more "A wise person doesn't always know the answer but he knows where to find it". So using you computer skills, your reading skills your literacy skills your comprehension skills..and your communication skills..you asked! You will then internalize information that has been offered by several of our members, you will organize it both physically and in your mind, you may copy it via "print" of you may write down step by step sequences, you will then verbalize it and report it either orally or in written forum to your group you may be asked to explain,compare, present, demonstrate,show build,question, reflect observe..I think thats reflecting learning at its best. The issue raised is a good one and I see some old fashioned values in those who wondered if this was the way for you to research. My response is by all means use your skills to find what you need to know..now , about timing that H...Mike in Exeter Ontario

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gordon hulgan

05-07-2005 15:51:55




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Michael Soldan, 05-06-2005 22:10:16  
michael soldan. Your sick old baste-.



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Michael Soldan

05-07-2005 16:09:12




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to gordon hulgan, 05-07-2005 15:51:55  
Could you explain why you would make that kind of comment to me. I didn't use any profanity or name calling to anyone , if you read my response I stated clearly that I understood why the value of The Kid's research was questioned , but he was clearly doing a learning thing, even though some may have overlooked all the learning processes that were going on, it was my opinion and my opinion has no more weight that anyone else's, I recognize that...one thing I have never done on this forum is crap all over someone for their opinion, what you added to the forum was nothing more than rude, ignorant and provided no reasoning or focus on the discussion. I would really like to hear from you and have you explain how I offended you so much that you would make the comment you did. I think others who were involved in the discussion are owed too Mike in Exeter Ontario

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Dixieland

05-06-2005 20:28:24




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
Hi Kid. CaptainK has given the best information for your request. However, with respect to the comments about research I would like to add my comments.
I had a 21 year old high school graduate helping me one summer. We needed to install a circuit suitable to handle the wattage of a commercial water heater. I verbally gave him the wattage of the heater and told him to divide that by 240 (volts). After a few minutes I asked him the anwser. He had been trying to figure out the anwser all that time and without any embarrasement he said, "we used calculators in school and never had to actually work out a math problem with his brain".
I beleive this is the problem some replys are concerned with. Nuttin like speriance!
Have a good evening...Dixieland

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Nebraska Cowman

05-06-2005 18:11:36




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to RobertN, 05-06-2005 17:43:57  
You guys are missing it. Farmallkid only asked ONE question and that was how to time an engine. There are as many opinions on this as brands of oil and I would like to see some replys to the fact.



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Janicholson

05-06-2005 15:58:27




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
There is merit to nats position, in this case if the kids know about this board it will end the research bigtime, and make it too easy. If Nat is the only recipient there will be no prob. Teachers should never worry about teaching beyond their personal knowledge. (I hope to do it all the time, I call it inspired learning). Exception is safe practice with tools/equip./tasks that could harm people or property.
Two recommendations:
1}Get at least two or three written manuals that contain the specific H info/specs. and get into them far enough to get a personal handle on process and priorities. And use the wisdom of this board's input to add to the Booklearning, the practical component presented here is invaluable.
The second is there are no such things as high compression rings. There are rings of high quality that can stand a high compression ratio, and combustion pressures, (chrome-brand name rings), but combustion chamber volume, piston crown config(dome, fire dome. pop-up, etc.), the piston to block deck height + head gasket thickness, and swept volume of the cyl, are compression generating elements. This is a great opportunity with great learning experiences keep at it. JimN

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Nebraska Cowman

05-06-2005 15:57:18




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
if you understand how an engine works Mitch it ain't no big deal. You do know how a 4 cycle engine runs?
OK here is the simple version. (I will assume you know how a crankshaft works to change back and forth motion to rotory motion.)
piston going down creates vacume and sucks in air wich drawn through the carburetor is mixed with fuel vapors. As piston comes back up (the flywheel is creating inertia to keep things rolling) the air fuel mixture is compressed and just as it reaches it's upmost an artificial spark ignites the flamable mixture and wham! the piston is forced downward with much force creating the power. on the return stroke the exaust gasses are pushed out and the cycle starts over again. valves are used to control the flow of the intake fuel and the exaust gasses at the correct time. Pretty simple hunh?

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Nat

05-06-2005 14:49:29




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
I battled back and forth with myself about posting this, and I'll probably get beat up by the rest of you for saying something, but here goes anyway:

There's something wrong with a kid getting an assignment that requires some research, then jumping on the Internet and asking some support group to give him the quick answer. Most research assignments are not about the answer itself, but in learning HOW to research, and in what else you learn in the course of your research. Granted this isn't for school, but in this case there should be MORE incentive to learn everything you can because participation is voluntary, not have someone give you the process all nicely typed up on a silver platter...

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Dave H (MI)

05-06-2005 17:44:45




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Nat, 05-06-2005 14:49:29  
You get my vote as the one person on here so far who saw the light. I teach part time at a college here locally and the school requires me to have a solutions manual available at the lab for our department. About 50% of my students go there and copy the assignment answers without doing the required research. About 50% of the students also fail the class because they learn nothing and cannot pass the tests. I think there is a lesson in that. Also, quite frankly, if the kid wants an answer he should ask with a little more respect. IMHO

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Farmallkid From Ont,

05-07-2005 09:38:12




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Dave H (MI), 05-06-2005 17:44:45  
Thanks for the post dr.sportster. Now i aint as old as some of the guys on here, 40, 50 or 60, i'm 17, and i think ive earned my respect on this farmall board, and some might have lost it.



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dr.sportster

05-07-2005 07:57:42




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Dave H (MI), 05-06-2005 17:44:45  
Dave if 50% of your students fail the course then Id say you are the problem,not the students.How come the military can teach complete idiots to shoot bullseyes at 500 yards.You need to rethink your teaching method maybe.Also respect is earned not just given out.



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Nebraska Cowman

05-06-2005 17:59:17




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Dave H (MI), 05-06-2005 17:44:45  
Respect???? i saw nothing disrespectful in the kid's post. And Farmallkid has been here as long as I have. He's one of the guys.



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Nebraska Cowman

05-06-2005 15:24:28




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Nat, 05-06-2005 14:49:29  
not at all nat. the smartest people don't know all the answers, they just know where to ask the questions.



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riverbend

05-06-2005 19:28:48




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 05-06-2005 15:24:28  
I think that you are right. When I went to school I was taught not to spend a lot of time memorizing things that could be looked up (it was before the internet). That's why I have a shelf full of manuals.

The real trick to timing an engine is geting the punch marks on the cam and crank lined up right. The rest of it you can do from the outside.



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captaink

05-06-2005 12:13:20




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 Re: OK BOYZ! 4-H tractor project ??'S in reply to Farmallkid From Ont,, 05-06-2005 11:49:35  
For ignition timing on a gasoline engine the basics are the same pretty much regardless of the engine. First you should have a shop manual that gives you the rotation of the distributor (clockwise on your H) the firing order (1-3-4-2 on your H), the location of the number 1 cylinder (nearest the radiator on your H) (some V-8 manufacturers number them differently), and the position of the number 1 tower on the distributor cap (there should be a number 1 under the top right tower on the distributor cap on your H). Next find the timing mark for the crankshaft position which will tell you when the #1 piston is at top dead center (TDC) on either the compression or exhaust cycle. On your H it will be a notch in the crankshaft pulley, but make sure (owners manual comes in handy here) you have the correct mark, as I believe there are two, one for TDC the other being the locator for the grease fitting in the flywheel for the clutch pilot bearing. On some engines the crankshaft position mark may be on the flywheel.

Once you have this information take out the spark plugs and place your thumb in the #1 spark plug hole. Have someone turn the engine over with the hand crank until you feel pressure trying to push your thumb off the spark plug hole. When you feel the pressure, continue cranking until the marks you found earlier on the crankshaft line up with the pointer. #1 piston is now in firing position (or close enough to get running anyway). Install the distributor so that the rotor under the cap is pointing towards the #1 tower on the cap. Next to get it real close, take an ohm meter and connect it to the terminal on the side of the distributor and a ground. Loosen the clamp that holds the distributor from rotating and rotate the distributor until the ohm meter shows some resistance (or the points have just opened). Tighten the clamp and your engine is now “static” timed. Install the spark plugs. To finish you need the specs and a timing light to really polish up the timing, again you hook the timing light up to the #1 spark plug per the lights instructions, and start the engine. There should be a mark on the pulley that indicates the correct timing, just loosen the distributor and rotate it until the timing light indicates that the plug is firing on the correct mark. Tighten the distributor and you are done unless you want to check the spark advance, which I’m not going into on this post as it is long enough.

If you have questions, send and e-mail to me.

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