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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Historical Farmall Motor Question

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Bill in NC

04-09-2005 12:42:48




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The C-123/C-113 motor that powered bunches of Farmall tractors (A, Super A, 100, 130, 140, 240, and more) was produced up through 1979. Looking at Old Oak Farmalls, it looks like the C-113 was used in the F-series, too. Is that true?

The other question is: are H and M motors just larger derivatives of the C-113 design? Different blocks, cranks, rods, pistons but in terms of valve train, combustion chamber and other design aspects do they share the same design traits? In other words, just scaled-up bigger versions of the C-113 design?

You know, the C-113 is a "modern" motor by 1930's standards what with its overhead valves arrangement. If it was also being built in the 1920's then I'd say Farmall was making advanced motors for that era. The other observation is the long production run for the design (mid-1920's? through 1979). Except for the small block Chevy V-8 design, there's not many motor designs continuously manufactured over a 50+ year period. Setting aside all of the above talk, what I really like about my 140's motor is the way it sounds when it is pulling hard, when it is idling and when it is slowly lugging into and out of the shed. It's music, man, music.

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Jim Becker

04-09-2005 17:01:15




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Bill in NC, 04-09-2005 12:42:48  
I wouldn't lump the F-12 engine in with the C-113. It happened to have the same bore and stroke and a few other key dimensions were the same. Thus a few parts interchange, but not much. For example, carburetion and governor were totally different.

Some of the other later engines were based pretty heavily from the C-113. The C-135 is one.

A wet sleeve engine has coolant in contact with the outer sides of the sleeves. The sleeve has to have a coolant-proof seal at both the top and bottom. A dry sleeve engine has a block much like a sleeveless engine and the sleeve is simply a liner inside the bore of the block.

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CNKS

04-09-2005 18:23:48




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Jim Becker, 04-09-2005 17:01:15  
I thought the blocks, not heads, in the 12/14 and the A,B,C, etc were roughly the same. Heads and carburators are definitely different. One book I have says the A,B,C engine (I interpret engine to mean block, although the book says "engine") was the same as the F14. But, I have never seen a 12/14 series up close, so I won't argue the point.



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Jim Becker

04-10-2005 09:41:28




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to CNKS, 04-09-2005 18:23:48  
That is just one of the many inaccurate things that can be found in books. Some authors are a lot more believable than others. Even the good authors have trouble keeping the mistakes out, but at least they try.



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George 2

04-09-2005 17:31:24




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Jim Becker, 04-09-2005 17:01:15  
Bill and Jim: To complicate matters add the parent metal bore C146 and C153. To get extra displacement and 3 3/8 pistons, the sleeves were dispensed with. If you look at the old F12 and F14 engine there aren't any similarities other than the same bore and stroke. The spark plugs are also on the opposite side to the C113 / C123 / C135 / C146 / C153 as well as the other items Jim mentioned. The carburettor was downdraft type. The magneto was also old style. The evolution of the old F series into the letter series tractors as described by Guy Fay in his book "IH Experimental and Prototype Tractors" provides is an excellent reference for someone trying to trace the lineage back to the F series. One comment that can be made is that IH went through a huge design effort in the mid to late 1930's to modernize their tractors, bulldozers, and motor trucks. As can be seen from reading the book, the reason the letter series engines are so different than the F series was that inside of 5 years several generations of prototypes were designed, built and tested and then discarded in favor of even more advanced technology designs. As such the new 1939 products were state of the art in 1939. Many manufacturers did not have as technologicly advanced designs even as late as 1947. By 1948 IH designs were starting to become dated as other manufacturers caught up and surpassed IH in their technology. The live PTO by Cockshutt and later Oliver is just one example. One other interesting point made is that the Farmall H did not evolve from the F20 but instead evolved from the F12 / F14 line. The Farmall A and B were entirely new in design, and did not evolve from the F 12 even though the engine displacement is the same.

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Bill in NC

04-09-2005 17:16:05




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Jim Becker, 04-09-2005 17:01:15  
Jim, was the F-12 motor an overhead valve design?



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George 2

04-09-2005 17:38:40




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Bill in NC, 04-09-2005 17:16:05  
Bill: Two different motors were used in the F12. The very early ones used a Waukesha flat head motor and was used in 1932 and part of 1933. From 1934 onwards IH used its own valve in head engine of the same 113 cubic inch displacement. There have been various discussions of why IH did it that way. If I remember right there was an article in Red Power Magazine a while back that describes the issue well.

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CNKS

04-09-2005 13:38:25




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Bill in NC, 04-09-2005 12:42:48  
I can't give all the details, but the C113-up was definitely a good engine. I thing the main difference between the F12 and A,B,C-up versions was lubrication of the valve train, someone else will have the details. Far as I know the H/M C152-up/C248-up type engines were not related to the C113 -- although the design of all valve in head engines is the "same". But the C113 was a wet sleeve engine, the C152/C248 had dry sleeves.

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Bill in NC

04-09-2005 16:43:14




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to CNKS, 04-09-2005 13:38:25  
CNKS, thanks for your information. I've got a question that probably 99% of the folks on this board know the answer. I rebuilt a VW engine many years ago and have read many a Popular Mechanics, Hot Rod, etc. over the years but what is the difference between "wet" and "dry" sleeves? Like my Irish friend says, "Every day is a day at school!" Please help this dummy with his continuing education!

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CNKS

04-09-2005 17:50:17




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to Bill in NC, 04-09-2005 16:43:14  
Wet sleeves are those that the coolant comes in direct contact with. Dry sleeves are pressed into the machined holes in the block that form part of the water jacket, they are not in direct contact with the coolant. My wording is not good, someone else is welcome to word it better.



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Ken K.

04-09-2005 20:05:02




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 Re: Historical Farmall Motor Question in reply to CNKS, 04-09-2005 17:50:17  
The 113 ci engine did not have a water pump while the H and M's had water pumps also. I have a Farmall A & B BUT the to me the best sounding engine of all is the H. A good running H has the sweetest sonud I know of. Put the H and the A or B beside the H and idle them down to their slowest idle and you will not here the H engine run. It is much quieter then the A or B engine. Talking about history of IH tractors, everyone thet loves the letter series IH tractors should buy FARMALL The Golden Age 1924 - 1954 by Lee Klancher. One little bit of information on page 105 Lee states that, and I quote - "When the war ended (1945), the postwar boom drove Letter Series sales through the ceiling. The Best-selling of the series, the Farmall Model H, is in fact the best-selling full-size tractor ever built, with more than 400,000 units built and sold between 1939 and 1954. International would sell 1.6 million wheeled full-size tractors in this era, a feat that will probably NEVER be matched in the United States." Now that is a quote for the John Deere fans out there!!!!

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