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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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can a fella just ball park the torque on rod caps

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arod

04-07-2005 12:41:37




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Hello, Putting my rod caps on on Farmall H. Can a fella just guess the force and get away with it.
-Aaron




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r-cubed

04-07-2005 21:12:11




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
I just get it as tight as I can then give it another quarter turn! Haven't had anything fall apart yet. Seriously, after 40 years of mechanicing one develops a feel.



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Paul in Mich

04-07-2005 18:35:55




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
arod, Of course you can guess at the amount of torque, but I sure wouldnt want to be very positive as to the results. Do yourself a favor and either buy or borrow a torque wrench and do it right. Why in the world would you go through the trouble of servicing the rod journals, whether replacing the bearings or simply removing, cleaning and replacing, and then expect good results by eliminating one of the most important segments which is applying the proper torque. It makes absolutely no sense.

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REDEYE

04-07-2005 17:52:34




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
No, you don’t have to use a torque wrench but it is important to stress the joint to the designed specifications. An alternative to a torque wrench, and much more accurate, is an extensometer. Using this device you measure the length of the bolt and tighten it until it reaches a specified length, which depends on the bolt. However, a torque wrench is much easier to use and is cheaper. If you are in a bind there is also the "turn of the nut method" which many people are referring to here when they say that "their father/uncle/grandfather has rebuilt engines for so many years without any problems.” The thing that people let out is that this individual had 30+ years of experience and learned from an individual with 30+ years of experience who learned from an individual with 30+ years of experience. With 90+ years of experience stored in the grey matter, they didn’t really need any special tools to get the job done. Anyhow with this method you use the pitch of the bolt and calculate how many degrees you need to turn the nut to reach the desired load. You can look up or measure the pitch and have to consult a table or figure out the extension.

Here is a list of the Proof Strength of some of the common bolts:
Grade Proof Strength (psi)
1 33000
2 55000
4 65000
5 85000
5.2 85000
7 105000
8 120000
8.2 120000

The above numbers are good to about a ¾ inch bolt.

You can then calculate the extension by dividing the Proof Strength by the Modulus and multiplying this by the shank length of the bolt (the distance between the head and the nut). The Modulus for steel is 30,000,000 psi.

Extension = Length x Proof Strength / Modulus

With a pitch of say 20 threads per inch and a desired extension of say, .075" you would calculate the turns required as follows:

20 threads per inch = .05 inch per thread (1/20)
.075"/.05" = 1.5 turns of the nut (540 degrees) to reach the desired bolt extension.

The turns of the nut start from a snug-tight condition which by engineering definition is "the full effect of a person using an ordinary wrench." For a 120 pound engineer it’s all they can do to snug a bolt, so for you big fellers, don’t get too crazy, leave off a bit. If the front wheels start sliding you done went to far, as my uncle used to say.

Now if your plane spins a bearing and crash lands on a deserted island, and you just happen to have another set of bearings, you could polish the crank with coconut peel and torque the bolts this way. However, using a torque wrench is well worth the extra assurance that the job is done right. (and if something would go wrong you could always blame it on a bad torque wrench) If not for anything else use a torque wrench for the sake of the poor engineer who spent about a day and a half calculating that torque spec for you with a slide rule, pencil and paper. Poor guy.

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Dixieland

04-07-2005 18:11:25




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to REDEYE, 04-07-2005 17:52:34  
That is about as plain as my tax filing!!!But not as painfull.



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REDEYE

04-07-2005 19:19:06




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to Dixieland, 04-07-2005 18:11:25  
Taxes? now thats another matter all in itself. A thousand times worse than trying to figure out a bolt extension. I am a resident of one state going to school in another, and apparently I owe both states tax. (figure that one out!!) Reading the 40 page books for each state which is 80 pages total, I have learned that I am going to somehow divy up my income between them. I am still scratching my head on how this is gonna work.

Let's see now if train A leaves point B at noon and train C leaves point D at 1:30 and ther both headed to Memphis, while train A travels at (34 x C)^(3/2) divided by the speed of light, will the trains collide? If the driver of train A stops at the railroad saloon for 15 minutes halfway through his trip and gets half cocked, how will this affect your answer? remember to take into account that his speed will be altered when he is in this state of mind..... .. ahhh gotta love taxes.

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Nebraska Cowman

04-07-2005 17:46:22




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
I've never used a torque wrench on rod caps so don't ask me.



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gordon hulgan

04-07-2005 17:08:17




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
why did you think they made torgue wrenchs.just for cars.the factors use them right or wormg your tractor.money not everthing you no. what i mean.gordon ala.



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Dixieland

04-07-2005 17:25:42




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to gordon hulgan, 04-07-2005 17:08:17  
Looks like Gordan has made a new batch!!!



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EZ

04-07-2005 14:41:07




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
arod,

I would put it like this:

You may be able to get away with it.

But, the specs. are there for a reason. One of the main reasons..... most bolts come with a tensile strength (grade) meaning they are made for certain applications, and can be torqued up to, but not beyond a certain torque weight without breaking. . i.e. one bolt can be torqued up quite tight for it"s physical make-up, while another bolt of the same size but a softer material WILL BREAK OFF if tightened too tight. Torquing a bolt too tight WILL cause some stretching in the bolt which is not good as it weakens the bolt as it nears or exceeds it"s "graded torque value". This is precisely why you use a torque wrench in the first place, so as not to exceed the the intended torque and therefore render your poor little bolt useless.
One does not really have to go into what could occur if not enough torque is applied.
Do yourself a favor, if only for piece of mind, borrow, beg or steal a torque wrench for your rod cap job. You will be much happier in the end, plus you can stand with other shade tree mech"s and compare notes.

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Allan in NE

04-07-2005 14:45:26




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to EZ, 04-07-2005 14:41:07  
EZ,

You and I both forgot to mention the insert crush. :>)

But, I agree. Doing it right is the only way.

Allan



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Allan in NE

04-07-2005 14:02:03




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
Aaron,

'Course ya can put it together without a torque wrench. The wheels won't go square, the paint won't come off, the steering wheel won't go out of round and the engine will run just fine.

A torque wrench is just a tool for the guy who isn't sure how tight he is pullin' 'em and is a means whereby he doesn't have to guess.

A torque wrench would be better, but like a lotta other things in this old world, there is no "Torque Wrench Police".

You'll do just fine. :>)

Allan

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Allan in NE

04-07-2005 14:12:16




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to Allan in NE, 04-07-2005 14:02:03  
However,

If you're gonna put a new set of rings on an old piston against an old liner, then I'll stand here and argue with ya 'til its milkin' time. :>)

Allan



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farmalljim10

04-07-2005 13:55:23




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
When I was 14 and I rebuilt my first engine a 1958 ford 223 6 cyl me father said rod caps as tight as you can pull with a ratchet wrench and main caps as tight as you can pull with a breaker bar but when I was 20 I bought my torque wrench... He also rebuilt B-17s but he was a much better Man than I....Sure you can if you really want to..



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BIG JOHN

04-07-2005 13:51:22




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
YOU SUUUURE CAN. But right after you get her back together you should start looking for a replacement engine. Some people might get lucky but that would never happen to me.



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RP

04-07-2005 13:24:36




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
Looking up torque specs AND/OR buying a torque wrench seems like cheap insurance, Compaired to buying a new engine block after you throw a connecting rod out the side of it!!!



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NDS

04-07-2005 13:04:32




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
No doubt it would be better to torque rods BUT my dad never owned a torgue wrench and in the 30+ years he ran Hs and Ms he overhauled a lot of engines. His tractors often ran 16 to 24 hours a day 6 days week during busy season and never knew him to have beraing problems.



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RustyFarmall

04-07-2005 12:56:51




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
Absolutely not!!! Get a manual, look up the recommended torque specs, and follow to the letter. If you do not own a quality torque wrench, get one.



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Dixieland

04-07-2005 12:55:24




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 Re: can a fella just ball park the torque on rod c in reply to arod, 04-07-2005 12:41:37  
Are you in a hurry or just don"t have a torque wrench??? If you are in a hurry, better wait fer a torque wrench...if you need a torque wrench, you can borrow one or if one is not available you can guess but might be wrong...it"s your tractor!



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