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CNKS

01-31-2005 13:31:57




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I might get my rear chewed for this, but this post is moving down page 2, and I'm still getting replies -- top of page is where post would go if we ever get to the new forum.




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lee

02-01-2005 11:51:19




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
I think it safe to say that CNKS would not have gotten half the opinions he got if he hadn't forced his topic to page 1. I know I'm usually all done at the end of page 2. The down side may be that he has to sort it all out! Good luck sorting CNKS! Hope you can come up with a cost effective solution and post results. Be sure to post page-1 so we won't miss it.



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Paul in Mich

02-01-2005 10:16:57




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
CNKS, I"m not trying to get into the foray, but let me give you and others the reason I like this forum format. I like it because while a certain post may be the most visited, it remains in the same sequence that it was first created, rather than being moved to the top every time a new response is added. I usually always scan 3 pages deep, but usually not more than that as by then the subject is cold. I sometimes look for a certain post, and can usually determine where to find it relative to the other posts. I don"t know about everyone else, but this makes it much easier for me. By having the last response drive the post to the top, while it may facilitate those involved in that topic, drives the other topics down in order of their response, rather than their original post. I firmly believe that this site remains vibrant and relative because of that. Other sites which use the newer format, may suit a few, but drive more folks away because of its nature. I think most of us have been here long enough that we know how to surf through the topics and respond to those which draw our interest. I for one find it much easier to follow the thread, which is why I don"t read the expanded version. Just my .02.

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CNKS

02-01-2005 11:31:38




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 Re: moved post in reply to Paul in Mich, 02-01-2005 10:16:57  
Paul, the main good thing about this forum is everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I read both Red Power and this forum, and have no real problems with either, I can go either way, but if it isn't my post, I sometimes have trouble finding the previously read ones I want to read again on either forum. This forum is in my opinion, many levels above the Red Power forum, as RP seems to be dominated by those who just like to talk, and provide little useful information; there are daily exceptions to this, but on this forum the serious questions are the rule and not the exception. I moved my post to the top because, as I told Hugh, the post hadn't died yet, and I was interested in getting more responses, which I did. I could have started a new post, actually I did, as the old one was presented as a link. I believe it was Riverbend who actually thanked me for it. I believe all the new answers were to the new post, but the link to the old one was there in case anyone who had not read the original version could if they wanted to. So, actually it wasn't moved to the top as in Red Power, only the link was. I see nothing wrong with that, and will probably do it again. As has been said before, "if you don't like it, don't open it". and, if anyone opens it and doesn't like it they don't have to read it. (I was told this in my response to the HTA post a couple of days ago, so it works both ways). I just don't like Hugh McKay who, by the way I have a lot of respect for, accusing me of destroying this forum, when that was neither the intent or the result of me moving the link to the top. If Kim decides to change this forum, it won't be destroyed, or drive anyone away, it will just take some getting used to -- but, I don't expect it to be changed. I do appreciate and understand your comments.

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Paul in Mich

02-01-2005 17:04:40




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 02-01-2005 11:31:38  
Thanks for your reply. I wasn"t being critical, and you took it the way I intended. I was simply offering a reason for my opinion. While many are eager to offer an opinion, some dont take the time to explain why. I also appreciate you explaining why you hold your opinion, and I can see the merit of both yours and mine. I certainly don"t speak for Hugh, and wont try, except to say that so many of us here are leery of any change which has the potential to render unintended consequences which would cause people to either not utilize the forums here, which most of us find most informative, useful, and entertaining, or find the forums so cumbersome that they ignore them altogether. I get so much out of this site, and especially the forums. I have gained a wealth of information, and continue to do so on a daily basis, and have met some grand and wonderful people here. I have spoken my mind, and have, I"m sure P.O."d a few folks, but with one exception, have ever developed a dislike for anyone. These forums have provided me with a place to exchange ideas as well as experiences, and I like that. I am not averse to change, and yet I would hate to have change have a negative overall effect on this site. I think thats what causes fear among others as well. Having said all this, I sure have learned an awful lot about painting tractors from just reading what you offer and your incite and suggestions you post on these forums. I even refer to the archives and seek out your expertise. On the other hand, If I want to know anything about the offset Farmalls, I read what Hugh has to say, because He does know his Little A"s.

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Hugh MacKay

02-01-2005 02:50:37




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
CNKS: As one of the guys put it, shop time will likely more than buy a new set of rocker arms. Maybe even the whole assembly.

Second Subject: New forum, why do you think you deserve priority just because this turned out to be a hot topic. You don't even bother to check in little box to receive e mail notification. It can be done without exposing your e mail. If your not willing to help yourself track your thread, why in heavens name would you expect YT or the users to do this for you, by being at top of page 1. Personally I think the threads receiving no responce are the one's to remain on page 1 for 2-3 days, no more. Some of you guys seem bound and determined to destroy this site, and turn it into a non information little club.

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CNKS

02-01-2005 09:00:07




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 Re: moved post in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-01-2005 02:50:37  
Hugh, you are turning into a grouch -- as I said the post was dribbling down page 2, and I was still getting responses, thought I would make it easier to see -- yes for my own selfish benefit, but also for others to see and learn also. I have learned one heck of a lot from this site, and will always learn more, as long as I read it. "non-information little club"? You've got to be kidding. I'm destroying the site looking options to repair my tractor -- you are still kidding aren't you? As to the email notification, that is the 1st time I have used it, I gave George my email, and we are currently corresponding -- what's the problem? The posts that don't get answered are the ones that no one knows the answer to. I will sometimes post answers to such posts, and tell the guy my opinion, but also tell him my info might not be correct, or that he needs to rephrase the question. I believe there is one such question further down the page regarding a 560 with two air cleaners, I started to answer that one, but then backed off, because I wasn't sure. With a new forum, that question would have come to the top of the page, and perhaps someone would have seen it. Going to shut up, before I say something I will regret later.

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Hugh MacKay

02-02-2005 03:19:54




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 02-01-2005 09:00:07  
CNKS: I got home quite late last evening, checked my e mail,(saw your post as I do always click the box for notification) I was tired, so went almost directly to bed. I am truly sorry if my post offended you personally. My attach was clearly against the idea of changing the format of these forums. That is a thought shared by a good number of people, on either side of the issue. I used to be quite active on the Red Power forum. That all ended as I did not have the extra time required to sort through their new system. Red Power in my opinion was never as user friendly as YT. By clicking the e mail notification box on YT posts, I can come home check my e mail, and deal directly with it. By checking that little box, it tells me if anyone has responded to any of my posts all the way to page 10, or however many pages there are on that particular day. YT could improve that one with a dual notification system, 1st notify one of a direct responce to their post, 2nd notify one if there has been activity on the thread, one had posted on.

Another factor on notification, it keep guys that post as much as you and I do, alert to any responces. Some of the questions you and I, and indeed others have answered many times, in fact the question becomes so natural, you answer and forget about it even being there.

The matter that I am adamant on is keeping the threads in order by date and time. I think this is truly what has made YT such a great success. It gives the appearence that all are equal. You and I have seen a lot of new people come and go just in our time here. Many of them find a tractor is not for them, or fix the tractor up and are on their way until it breaks down.

Another matter I believe in, but do not insist on is exposing of e mail addresses. I firmly believe, once one decides to address a public forum, he or she must subject themselves to public scrutiny. If you write a letter to the editor of one of the many news papers across North America, they will not publish unless you provide name and adderss, either e address or postal. I used to do a bit of writing on political issues. Government waste and corruption are issues I find hard to tolerate. Believe me I know the feeling of having a lawyer call telling me to back off or face legal proceedings, yes even had one guy suggest a visit to me by two men in a black Lincoln, with tinted glass was in order. I did back off on this type of writing, you cant cure those guys, they will be corrupt as long as the earth turns. I still make some snowballs, but someone else throws them.

Finally Charles, I meant no disrespect by my post. When it comes to advice on this old iron, there is not too many opinions I would value more than yours. In fact I will go so far as to say, if a pole were taken re; the ten most helpful people at YT in any of the past 5 years that I've been here, CNKS would have to be on that list. I am not prepared to say where on that list, I would place you, nor am I prepared to say who 9 of my 10 nominees would be. The responce you received on your thread on rocker arms is proof of that. It was a good discussion, one clearly with a lot of involvment.

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CNKS

02-02-2005 08:22:29




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 Re: moved post in reply to Hugh MacKay, 02-02-2005 03:19:54  
Hugh, everything is swell, perhaps I took your post the wrong way -- I had forgotten about the email notification thing. I prefer to look for responses as I read the forum, I typically look for those before I read the new ones. It's however, whoever, wants to do it. I really had not thought about "moving a post to the top" until yesterday, and did it only to get more answers and make it more visible. A lot of the technical (read "dumb" perhaps), questions I ask don't get much response--my most recent ones are exceptions. As to the former, either no one knows the answer, or the right people are not on the forum within a day or so of the post, thus I sometimes do not get a good answer. In that case, rather than ask the question again, I will probably simply link to the post so that anyone who has an answer can see what the others have said. I don't see anything wrong with that. As I said previously, this forum is several levels above the RPM forum, for what most of us use it for.

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Hugh MacKay

02-02-2005 14:24:37




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 02-02-2005 08:22:29  
CNKS: I would be lost without the forum notification e mail. I always click that little box and it sends me an e mail everytime someone responds to any posting I've made. If you click directly on the number it will take you directly too the post in question. The reason I suggest this is, I wonder how many realize this. I think if this included a second box, where by you could get the same for any postings to a particular thread. Of course this would have to be a thread one was involved in. Then one could ask for either - or as it applies to notification. As it stands right now, one only receives notification of a direct responce to a post.

I raise this point as I think there are a lot of people don't realize this feature. If there is one place where YT managemnt falter a bit, it is explaining use of this site. By the same sign, I feel the new forum proposal has never been explained well enough in laymans terms. Fine for the computer whizz kids. For we older people who never encountered computers in the work place. I liken it to my grand father learning to drive the car late in life. Never got good, always backed out of garage accelater 60% to the floor and riding the clutch. My dad always worried what would happen should his foot slip off clutch. We young lads though it funny, guess what young lads are laughing at me, driving computer.

You take care and keep up the good work. YT needs you more than you need them.

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RustyFarmall

01-31-2005 21:34:05




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
Along the same lines that riverbend is talking about, does anyone build an aftermarket roller rocker set-up for that engine?



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CNKS

02-01-2005 08:44:27




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 Re: moved post in reply to RustyFarmall, 01-31-2005 21:34:05  
Not to my knowledge -- not saying they don't exist.



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riverbend

01-31-2005 19:34:36




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
Thanks for bringing this back to the front.

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but it sounds like you are heading towards buying a set of new rockers. Machine shop time would have to be pretty cheap to get the old bushings bored out, new bushings installed, a new hard tip built up, and reground, etc., for $30. In any case, the rocker arms are right on top if it does not work out.

It is grasping at straws, but by chance, the 460 rocker wouldn't be the same as an older cast design, would it ? Do you know, or have enough parts books to see if the 460 rocker is the same as an older design like an H or an M ?

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CNKS

01-31-2005 19:48:29




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 Re: moved post in reply to riverbend, 01-31-2005 19:34:36  
The C221 in the 460 is a descendant of the Black Diamond International truck engine. The 460 gas rocker arms are all the same, the H/M has LH and RH ones.



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george md

01-31-2005 19:33:30




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
CNKS, Those tips are hard all the way thru.

You get those arms in a box , get them here

and I'll repair and regrind as needed .

george



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CNKS

01-31-2005 19:52:13




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 Re: moved post in reply to george md, 01-31-2005 19:33:30  
George, send me an email, it's unlocked.



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CNKS

01-31-2005 19:53:54




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 19:52:13  
Well it's supposed to be unlocked -- cnorwood@wbsnet.org.



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george md

01-31-2005 21:23:27




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 19:53:54  
CN, I think the mail is on the way , my hi speed
was down and I had to change servers .

george



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brtx

01-31-2005 19:00:08




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
all this makes me wonder what my 469 farmall rockers are like. i dont use mine much.shred 35 acres with a 7 ft shredder and for odd jobs.dont think ill tear into it anytime soon.if it goes down that will be a different story. with the price of all the parts you have bought i sure wouldnt be soending any more than i absolutely had to. would be nice to have everything in new condition but when you rely on retirement income i sure would be cutting some corners to help with costs.as long as its not a real critical area.with the prices of everything these days i guess $30 apiece is not bad when you consider what goes into the manufacturing.ive seen some prices that are more ridiculous.i think as long as you set the valves regularly anything that is going bad can be replaced at that time.gives you something to do instead of sitting and watch what clouds we have go by.

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mbnok

01-31-2005 18:35:50




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
back in the days of the stove bolt six chevy we would take a rocker and grind it slowly by eyeball on the side of a grindstone to take the wear spot out. What you need is a flat rest to the side of the stone, you can check it with a square, and then watch the face (tappet) you have and follow it until you smooth it out. I did this on the B some years ago and it worked for me. On the chevys sometimes they would use less oil, on the B I couldn't tell it wasn't using any oil anyway I just wanted to be able to adjust the the tappets easier.

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CNKS

01-31-2005 19:05:19




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 Re: moved post in reply to mbnok, 01-31-2005 18:35:50  
Some people are more skilled than others -- my lawnmower blades don't even come out right.



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brtx

01-31-2005 17:32:30




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
cnks lee has made some good points on his posts.i think i would smooth the rocker radius and not ream the bushings and have another shaft built.you could be curing one problem and creating another.if the rocker radius does not get close to center on the valve it could create wear in the valve guide. if your bushings are not worn excessively reuse them.get a new rocker shaft if needed. if you have excessive wear. its taken40 plus years to get the wear you now have and with the way the rocker is assembled i cannot see a problem in the next 40 even if you farm with it every day.when you get the rockershaft installed you can eyeball the rocker /valve contact area.my guess would be that it will be ok.a reamer is good to get a perfect circle to a certain dimension .its not meant to ream an imperfect hole to a certain dimension.especially with 12 rockers and 7 pedestals that have to be relative to each other.my 2 cents

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CNKS

01-31-2005 18:20:42




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 Re: moved post in reply to brtx, 01-31-2005 17:32:30  
The minimum I'm going to do is get new shafts, and have someone accurately measure and check both the bushings and the support holes for roundness. If the bushings cannot be replaced (still not sure), and the old ones have to be machined, the available OEM shafts won't fit and will have to be made, and the oil holes drilled. I haven't mentioned the ball that contacts the push rod, those are replacable, and available for about $10 each. If all of that is machined or replaced, along with having new shafts made, I'm probably approaching the price of all new rockers and shafts. It's just that paying as much for rocker arms as I am paying for the whole overhaul kit, sort of makes me want to barf.

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lee

01-31-2005 18:08:47




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 Re: moved post in reply to brtx, 01-31-2005 17:32:30  
brtx has a point here that these rocker bushings do not have to be perfectly round or a perfect fit on the shaft. Some of your posts suggested they were very badly worn or damaged. Others suggest they may be OK. I suggested possibly reaming or boring the bushings, making new shafts as suggestions to get to a fix. These are all doable fixes for $$. I have no idea the condition of the parts or your capacity to get machine work done. None of the machine work you need is highly complex but if you don't have access to a shop that will work for reasonable $$ you may as we;ll be doing rocket science. Perhaps brtx is onto the most econmical fix if the rocker tips can be dressed and the bushings used as is on new shafts.

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Allan in NE

01-31-2005 14:46:54




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
CN,

Believe me you don't want a new forum. Just go visit the Red Power site and you'll see what a mess that turned into.

Pretty much a ghost town over there except for two or three die hard crawler guys.

Allan



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CNKS

01-31-2005 14:52:09




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 Re: moved post in reply to Allan in NE, 01-31-2005 14:46:54  
I hope the crawler people don't come over here and shoot me, but they seem to dominate the thing-I liked the old version better, don't know want useful the useful features Rick says he added. I don't object to the format, answers to questions such as I'm asking now will come to the top everytime someone answers, or I can make it come to the top and irritate everyone until I get the answer to my silly questions -- naaa, I wouldn't do that!

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Allan in NE

01-31-2005 15:11:46




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 14:52:09  
CN,

Do whatever ya gotta do to get your answers. You've earned your sea legs around here. :>)

Allan



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lee

01-31-2005 15:16:01




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 Re: moved post in reply to Allan in NE, 01-31-2005 15:11:46  
I only send bills to satisfied customers.



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Allan in NE

01-31-2005 15:36:56




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 Re: moved post in reply to lee, 01-31-2005 15:16:01  
Sure wasn't talkin' 'bout you, ol' friend,

I was generalizing, 'cause ol CN has been around here since the cows left home. :>)

Allan



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lee

01-31-2005 18:38:48




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 Re: moved post in reply to Allan in NE, 01-31-2005 15:36:56  
I know that, I was only joking.



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CNKS

01-31-2005 13:36:02




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:31:57  
If anyone is still interested, you can reply to the post here or click on the link and reply to it.



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lee

01-31-2005 14:31:06




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:36:02  
dear cnks, I realize you don't have a camera. I must say, with no disrespect, a picture here would be worth the cost of 1,000 rockers. LOL, I have to laugh, because I know you are trying your best to describe the geometry of your rocker. At this stage I cannot see it in my minds eye. It sounds like a valve tip wear pad is attached in some fashion to the stamped steel rockers. A groove the width of the valve stem is likely worn in this wear pad by the valve tip. The valve tips often have a chamfer. This could create the effect of a V shaped groove worn in the tip. This was the case for the rockers on my B. We dressed that surface to remove the groove sides and just to the point of cleaning up the area where the valve tip had been running on the rocker pad. The end result was a pad with slight curvature sweeping the tip of the valve. My description is probably no better than yours.
I can't put a picture in words any better than you can.

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CNKS

01-31-2005 14:47:33




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 Re: moved post in reply to lee, 01-31-2005 14:31:06  
Lee, I guess my question is/was, do you think the rocker tips were hard surfaced--another non-camera picture: --(-- rotate the frown 90 degrees to the right and you are looking at an upside down rocker tip (forget the V). The part of the curve at the top is shiny, as if has been polished, the edges of the curve are dull. Looks like I have the choice of spending $360 for a camera, or $360 for 12 $30 rocker arms, with the camera, I wouldn't have to ask so many questions.

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lee

01-31-2005 15:08:44




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 14:47:33  
the shiny areas are where the valves have been in contact. My guess right off hand is that pad is thru hardened or at least deep case hardened. What is the depth of the wear?



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CNKS

01-31-2005 18:06:40




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 Re: moved post in reply to lee, 01-31-2005 15:08:44  
I think I'm going to have to answer my questions by buying a new rocker and comparing it to the old ones. The shiny area would logically be where the rocker is in contact with the valve stem, but looking at some of them, it is getting smaller. As to how thick it is, I bet not more than maybe .002, I can't tell--provided that's what I'm looking at. If it is simply where the tip contacts the stem, it means that up to about 30% of the surface is unused (or barely touched) and that there was a lot of variability in that contact from valve to valve for a long time. On the other hand if the valve stem made good contact over the whole rocker tip surface, the tip pressed more on the edges and wore them off. In that case it is probably impossible to get them set correctly. Does anyone have some old rocker arms laying around they can look at to determine the wear pattern?

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lee

01-31-2005 18:21:23




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 Re: moved post in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 18:06:40  
I would suggest on a limb (because I cannot see and touch the parts) you have described a pretty typical set of rocker arms and wear patterns and if the wear is reasonable in depth, these can be dressed with no difficulty by a competent shop and then you are on to evaluating the bushings.
What your shop says about those rockers I suggest will tell you a lot about your shop.



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CNKS

01-31-2005 14:17:24




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 Re: moved post--lee in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 13:36:02  
lee, you reminded me of something in one of your posts, where you mentioned the rocker tip being hardened. The tips themselves are maybe 1/8-3/16 inch thick. Looking at them again, the middle part is shiny, the edges are dull, almost as if the tips were hard surfaced, and the surfacing is wearing off, leaving the original metal underneath. If that is the case, I believe the valve stem contacts the tip over the full radius?--shiny and dull. Looking closer, the 20-30 degree edges I referred to is not correct (dunno why I said that, obviously wrong), it is more like 10 degrees, the "sharp" edges are where the shiny area ends and the dull area begins. There are no two alike. There is also a peak in the middle of the shiny area, where the tip moves the valve to the maximum opening, it is not a perfect semicircle, if it should be. It is not worn off in that area.

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lee

01-31-2005 15:00:26




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 Re: moved post--lee in reply to CNKS, 01-31-2005 14:17:24  
It sounds like the murky water is clearing some.
It's sounding like the typical hardened wear pad attached to the tip of a rocker like this. You say the pad is 1/8 to 3/16 thick. The valve tips would not all be centered on these pads when assembled. One valve might wear the center of the pad, another valve to the left or right. It would vary depending on the placement of a particular valve tip to a particular rocker at assembly. Maybe that is why you describe them as none being the same. This is normal. The machinist would dress that pad to remove the groove and smooth it up, just to clean up, and to follow the curvature that is there. If the pad is worn thru or so thin there is too little left after dressing it is scrap. Pad hardness could be checked by your machinist I would think he would have a hardness tester. The pad may be case hardened or hardened thru, hard to tell from here.

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CNKS

01-31-2005 18:30:22




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 Re: moved post--lee in reply to lee , 01-31-2005 15:00:26  
Ok, will see if he can check the hardness and maybe he can look at it and decide where the tip is making contact with the stem. I think only the surface was hardened, not the whole pad, at least not to the degree of the surface. Thanks to yours and everyones help. Will post back what I find.



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