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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Why gas to start the diesel engine?

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farmallkid From

12-21-2004 13:52:48




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Just came accross my mind today, why did the diesels need a pup to start, like the M's, 6's, and 9's. As some of you may know, I don't know JACK about engines, i helped a guy get our 6 unseized and leared alot but would not be able to tackle one myself. So for the diesels, was it that glowplugs were not invented yet. Did the diesel hundred series tractors need pups to start? just wondering why.

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AdamA

12-21-2004 21:09:09




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 13:52:48  
I agree with most of the posts below. The manuals do say to shut them down on gasoline. I have a very good understanding of how the old IH diesels operate. They are a complicated engine. I think I amaze some people when I talk them through the whole starting and shutting down procedure and how it works. When I graduate I am going to college for diesel mechanics. Out of all the tractors in our collection the 4 diesels are my favortie to work on. One thing that I have been told is that it is easier on the starting valves to leave them closed (diesel position) when tractor is not running. This takes the tension off of the springs. I hope you guys don't take this the wrong way thinking that I think I know everything, because I don't. I have been working on tractors for 3 years now so I do have a lot of knowledge about them for only being 18.
Adam

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Bus Driver

12-21-2004 18:18:57




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 13:52:48  
One advantage of the IH system (starting on gasoline) not yet mentioned is that the engine could be hand cranked if necessary. A regular Diesel of that size could not be hand cranked by an ordinary person.



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Brandon Mills

12-21-2004 19:56:11




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Bus Driver, 12-21-2004 18:18:57  
Last year i bought a Super md-ta and asked the same question only to find out that you could not crank a diesel over due to the hogh compression and glow plugs were not invented or used at the time thet i know of. Too get the full understanding if it you would have to tear one down like i did to mine.



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Jimmy King

12-21-2004 16:14:56




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 13:52:48  
A man that worked on alot of road construction, told me once when they had an IH they started it in winter and pushed the Cats, A C, and Ukes to start them.



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Andy Martin

12-21-2004 14:01:38




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 13:52:48  
What do you mean by "pup"? If you mean pony motor, a gas starter engine that JD, CAT and others used, the IH diesels are direct electric start. They just happen to have a carburetor, magneto, sparkplugs in the head and compression relief valves to let the beast run on gasoline. they start great, warm up well because the gas is burning in the cylinders, and they have lots and lots of parts.

High capacity batteries, high power starters and glow plugs were not perfected and the IH design allowed starting in all conditions with very little cranking power.

Lots of modern diesels don't use glow plugs but have enough power to spin the engine fast enough to start on diesel.

Not sure how many of those will be running in 50 years, but the old IH diesels will be.

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farmallkid From ONT.

12-21-2004 16:34:19




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Andy Martin, 12-21-2004 14:01:38  
Ya, by pup i mean a little gas engine to start the diesel engine, like the deeres. So what your sayin is that , since they didn't have high power batteries and starters to crank the diesel engines enough, they just used a small engine as the starter. correct?



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farmallhal

12-21-2004 16:59:12




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 16:34:19  
We were all in your shoes at one time. Just hang in here and you'll get this. What they (the previous posts) are trying to get across to you is that the early IH diesels were both a gasoline and diesel engine in one. There wasn't a second engine, the right side of the engine had all the gasoline components, carb, distributor, etc. while the left side had the diesel components, filters, injector pump, etc. The engine was started using the gasoline side and after a warm up period the same engine was switched over to diesel fuel and the gasoline supply was shut off. Since the engine had warmed sufficiently, and when the lubrication oil and cooling fluid was warm and circulating the diesel could start running. This is all in the same engine using two different fuel types and the components to run the engine in either mode. The problem being it would not start first on diesel fuel due to the lack of development of the necessary components for a diesel as we know them today. What someone else mentioned in their post it is amazing that these 1940 - 1950 era tractors will still be running when today's diesels are out of the picture. Not a bad design with what was available to the engineers in that era. Hope this helps.

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Wayne Swenson

12-21-2004 16:58:20




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 16:34:19  
IH didn"t use a "pup" for starting.
The cylinder head on the main engine has a secondary or "extra" combustion chamber that was accessed up for starting on gasoline at a lower compression ratio. When the decompression lever was pulled the small third valve in the cylinder head opened, the gasoline carburetor was began to function, and the distributor began to make sparks. The engine ran at a set speed on gasoline until the cooling system was warm enough to allow operation on diesel fuel.
Closing the decompression lever and opening the throttle allowed the small third valve to close thereby shutting off the secondary combustion chamber resulting in increased compression, the carburetor was shut off, and the distributor quit making sparks. The engine would now run on diesel.
The somewhat complicated cylinder head was prone to cracking unless the engine was cooled down carefully before shutting down.
What you had was a gasoline engine "hiding" inside a diesel engine.

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JD 5020 guy

12-21-2004 17:58:23




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 12-21-2004 16:58:20  
They cracked heads regardless if they were cooled down or not. Its a design flaw in the engine and I have had several of the old IH mechanics tell me this. We have a IH TD 14A crawler bought new in 1955 thats had the head off a few times even though it was used for 10 years as our main tractor.



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Allan in NE

12-21-2004 17:04:08




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 12-21-2004 16:58:20  
Wayne,

Did you ever switch the things back to gas to shut 'em down? I've heard of people doing this.

Heck we always just let 'em idle down for a couple of minutes and then threw the throttle closed.

Allan



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RustyFarmall

12-21-2004 17:53:35




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Allan in NE, 12-21-2004 17:04:08  
Allan, I think sometimes people confuse the old distillate and kerosene burners with diesels. The distillate burners also had to be started on gas, and then switched over to the other fuel, and with those tractors you did want to switch back to gas before shutting down, that way there would already be gas in the carb, ready to be started the next time. I can't imagine switching a diesel back to gas before shutting it down, don't think that would be too good for the engine.

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Geoff NY

12-21-2004 18:56:32




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to RustyFarmall, 12-21-2004 17:53:35  
I have the origanal operators manual for a couple of the diesels, and the shut down proceedure includes switching back over to gas.



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Allan/NCA

12-21-2004 18:13:34




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to RustyFarmall, 12-21-2004 17:53:35  

I remember neighbors out here doing what Allan said and switching back to cool down. It was mostly on the TD9's ,TD14's and TD18's. It didn't sound right but they did what worked best for them and only when really working under heavy loads. Allan/NCA



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JD 5020 guy

12-21-2004 18:01:57




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to RustyFarmall, 12-21-2004 17:53:35  
According to the manuals, you are supposed to switch the engine over to gas while shutting off the gas supply from the tank to allow the engine to use up all the gas in the carb.



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Paul in Mich

12-21-2004 19:35:42




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to JD 5020 guy, 12-21-2004 18:01:57  
This was the very reason that many owners or operators didn"t follow the shut off proceedure, as when the switch over lever was pushed forward, thus shutting off the diesel, and switching back to gasolene was complete, the operator had to dismount the tractor and manually shut off the gasolene flow to the carburetor to allow the engine to simply run out of gas. There was no kill switch except for the switchover handle. The proceedure also called for switching the handle back to the diesel position as its "sleeping position". That meant that the operator had to remount the tractor to pull back the switching handle. It was just not a convenient way of shutting off the tractor, therefore many if not most people simply let the engine idle to cool off, and not go through the switching back to gas phase before shutting down the diesel. We did it that way on our MD, and were lucky enough to not have cracked the head. That leads me to believe that while shutting off on gasolene may have been the prefered method, I"m not sure that not doing so was the primary reason for the heads cracking as they did. I rather think it was the lack of material in the head itself and /or the alloy makeup, since people tell me that the post war models had weaker alloy castings than the earlier models, and cracking was more prevelant on the later models.

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Redrider

12-21-2004 20:05:00




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Paul in Mich, 12-21-2004 19:35:42  
Paul, all IH gas/diesels had a kill switch for the gas side. I've got 3 of these and the all have a kill switch. Even the one with a mag. The only reason IH recommended switching back to the gas cycle was to sort of clean the diesel out of the combustion chamber. In 40 years of operating these tractors I have never cracked a head. What cracked these heads was letting them overheat and shuting them down to soon after being worked hard.

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Andy Martin

12-22-2004 06:19:31




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to Redrider, 12-21-2004 20:05:00  
One of my worst errors operating equipment was shutting my TD-18 down too quickly when we had a family emergency one day and busting one of the the heads. Did not know the head was busted until I cranked it and broke the top out of No. 1 piston.

Wished I'd just left it idling and run out of fuel.

Of course I busted the head on a 4-53 in a motor grader by letting it idle while trying to get a neighbor unstuck. So you just have to know what you are doing. The Detroit was a lot cheaper fix.

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Allan in NE

12-21-2004 16:52:29




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 Re: Why gas to start the diesel engine? in reply to farmallkid From ONT., 12-21-2004 16:34:19  
Think of the cold engine as an air compressor. Before you start the compressor, it is cold, run it just a few minutes and it gets really hot from the act of compressing the air.

Diesels need heat to ignite the fuel. Pony motors spin 'em to get 'em hot enough for the fuel to ignite when it is injected.

Allan



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