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240 won't start -- any thoughts

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Dave D

11-20-2004 11:38:12




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Folks, nearing the end of my patience and need some good advice. Temp about 30F this morning and my IH 240 started right up with a touch of the choke. I let it idle about 10 minutes, choke off. It sounded normal to me. Lifted the bucket, put it in reverse, rolled about 10 feet and it died. Cranks and will not start and I have gone through 2 battteries today. I checked fuel flow (OK), went over my ignition wire connections between plugs and distributor and coil. They seem tight. I can't do that trick of watching a spark jump to the block because I can't reach everything myself while hitting the starter.

3 weeks ago the original Zenith carb was judged unable to be rebuilt and I replaced it with a Marvel on the advice of the tractor shop. It started IMMEDIATELY and started quick and ran fine for about 10 days. Then after a trip in road gear it decided not to start again and this time I updated the ignition wires (made in USA, copper, non-resistor) and the tractor shop also recommended hotter plugs, Champ D21's. Again it started IMMEDIATELY and worked well last weekend and hauled a bunch of field stone.

Here is everything I am aware of for your consideration:
1) smells like it might be running rich and I can't seem to lean it out. I've done the jet adjustments that the shop advised.
2) I don't feel that I have the power I had with the old carb before it died.
3) the idle seems faster than before but I need a flexible shaft screwdriver to adjust it on this new carb and can't find one at my local hdwe store - haven't tried Wally World yet.
4) I'm the guy who committed the sin of using teflon tape on the fuel hose connection into the new carb - it dissolved to my surprise. Hope teflon burns.
6) I'm also the guy who used some extra 2-stroke oil to fill the air breather cup that hadn't been dredged out since Kennedy was president and this unit was new.
7) for the past 3 weeks I've had a can of ISO HEET dry gas in the fuel. This tractor sits outside under a tarp and it is getting cold up here. And the previous owner told me that water in the tank plays hell with this tractor. (He didn't tell me that it needed a new carb.)
8) fuel is flowing well into the carb.

Before I give up and spend money I don't have on calling a tractor service housecall, I wondered if anybody had any thoughts. Everybody tells me that 240s have a reputation as being great starting engines so I am hoping one day to get to that happy place. Getting tired of spending the few remaining non-snow weekends -- when I could be moving rocks and wood -- trying to get/keep this tractor running. Thanks, gentlemen.

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don the plumber

11-21-2004 16:10:36




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
it could be that the teflon as worked its way into card bowl and is giving you trouble with clogging fuel flow depending on rpms bouncing of tractor ect.



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Hugh MacKay

11-21-2004 08:47:35




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Dave: I have used a tarp and found that without an air space over the tractor, condensation was a real problem particularly in ign. I put up a 2x4 frame, higher on one side than other, pulled one of those cheapy $15. tarps over it and used 1.5" plywood straps, to nail it down. Kind of made an 8' by 14' mini shop. I had just moved and nothing but house on lot at new place first winter. That thing actually lasted 3 years. I had it sheltered a bit by trees so the prevailing winds didn't hit too hard. It was a great shelter for doing all kind of chores in that first winter.

I then built a new 30' x 30' shop that wasn't big enough. Took the tarp building apart, reframed it as a leanto on back side of shop. Put on a new tarp. I know a guy that did one with green house hoops.

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Dave D

11-22-2004 13:49:11




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Hugh MacKay, 11-21-2004 08:47:35  
Sounds like a good idea, Hugh. I did think about "breathability" before acquiring a tarp for this old beast. I decided to skip the "big blue tarp" and invest in a heavy canvas duck. It is large and brown, about 14x20. And it is indeed heavy. Actually, the wife laid down the law -- she said I could have an old tractor parked next to the garabge but no big blue tarp, absolutely and that's final! So I had to find a brown canvas one. The internet was marvelous and I found one in about 10 minutes. But you are right, condensation is still going to be a problem. Will see if the snow holds off another week in northern New England and maybe I can emulate your example. thanks, Dave D

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Hugh MacKay

11-22-2004 14:35:05




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-22-2004 13:49:11  
Dave: Actually my wife said the same thing that year about the blue tarp. I said fine, would you like the job digging the snow off the tractor, then plunking your backside on seat to soak up the moisture, or would you sooner just shovel the driveway.

She was a bit spoiled as on the farm, I had a big tractor with cab had always plowed drivway and yard. A area large enough for milk truck to turn and then some. Now I was just going to be me and Super A. doing the snow. I told her if she wanted a parking area large enough for her bridge club, then my little tractor needed care and attention.

As luck would have it we had close to 5 feet of snow on ground at one time that winter. Super A kept it so she could drive to kitchen door with groceries and could have parked two bridge clubs. I think I could have parked that little tractor in the living room by the time spring came.

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K.B.-826

11-20-2004 19:51:31




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Dave, where are you checking the fuel flow? If you're pulling the line from the sediment bowl to the carb off and checking it there, that tells you that your tank outlet, sediment bowl, and fuel line are all open, but it dosen't tell you if you're getting fuel past the needle valve. Try this- turn off the fuel at the sediment bowl, and look for a plug on the bottom of the carb bowl. Remove this plug. Fuel should drain out of it. Check the condition this fuel, does it look clean? Now open up the fuel shut-off valve. You should get a strong steady flow out of the bottom of the carb bowl. If all of this checks out, the fuel system should be good enough that the engine would at least fire. Concentrate on the electrical and ignition systems. Of course, if you do not get a stong flow of fuel out of the bottom of the carb bowl, check into the fuel system. The electrical system on a 40+ year old tractor will be a nightmare. Check for a spark, you can buy spark testers that clamp to ground, so you don't have to hold them. Replace the plugs, points, condenser, distributor cap, rotor, and coil.

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Gene

11-20-2004 19:28:10




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
My vote is with the coil or condensor.

I didn't see where you had changed the points. If you haven't done so I'd change the points, condensor, check the rotor and distrubutor cap, then check the timing - aka tune up.

I'd also swap out the coil with a known good one.



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Dave D

11-21-2004 05:57:39




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Gene, 11-20-2004 19:28:10  
Thanks, guys. Monday I am taking off and am going for remaining parts in the ignition system, definitely including coil & condenser. And K.B., your point is excellent about fuel flow. I had not been checking THRU the carb as you suggest. Will do that too. I appreciated the observation about condenser problems letting it run about 10 minutes before dying -- that's this one for sure. Last, the guy who sugggested continuity check in the leads from the switch to the ignition system also gave me a good possibility which I was otherwise taking for granted.

Hugh, I don't know what to do about the tarp. I feel I should cover this thing in winter because of heavy snow, a subject I suspect you know something about. Building a 2nd garage or shed ain't in the budget this year.

Thanks again, everyone. I really appreciate everyone's generosity with time and ideas based on advanced knowledge of tractors.

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Hugh MacKay

11-20-2004 18:23:43




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Dave: take the tarp and burn it, all they do is collect condensation. Now, I put your problem in one of three places; Crack in the distributor cap, points and condencer or coil. Maybe all three.



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Hermit

11-20-2004 18:06:24




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Loose, corroded or internally broken wire between ignition switch and coil or coil and points. Also check any in-line splices or crimped terminals for looseness or oil contamination.



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Paul Shuler

11-20-2004 14:14:14




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
I had a coil once do almost the exact things you are discribing. They don't cost much and might fix your head ache. Mine would start and run great and die in 10 mins. Then wouldn't restart for an hour or two. Then the cycle would start all over again.



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Farmer Bob

11-20-2004 13:16:10




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
I vote for coil/condensor problem. You mentioned it is tarped. If it has been damp, check for moisture inside the distributor cap as well. Who was it that wisely said, if it acts like a fuel problem, check the ignition side. If it acts like ignition, check for fuel problems?



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El Toro

11-20-2004 13:04:21




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Hi Dave, Have you pulled the plugs quickly when it quits running to see if they're wet? Had it been running ok with the Zenith carb? I would do like some have suggested on checking the ignition firing. If it looks ok, I would suspect a problem in the carburetor. Does it start after sitting for a awhile? Condenser or coil may be weak. Did they use a ballast resistor with that battery ignition? They were known for causing problems too. Hal

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Dave D

11-20-2004 14:11:51




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to El Toro, 11-20-2004 13:04:21  
Well, it seems to start Ok on weekly intervals after each round of replacing something like carb or wiring. The plug I pulled off today looked bone dry, no evidence of being drenched with fuel. No carbon.

Hal, I am thinking you are right about condenser and coil. Did not replace those yet. Will try that on Monday. I know the coil looks close to original, has been painted over at least a couple times just like the distributor was. On the carb situation, the old Zenith definitely crapped out and the inside parts -- needle valve seats etc. - could not be unscrewed from the aluminum housing to be replaced. I went to the workbench with the old IH-Case guy and am satisfied that he was square with me about that. I am not satisfied that I have the Marvel adjusted right, however, because I don't think I have the power I used to have and keep smelling gas when we are running along with the exhaust in my face.

But that (in my mind) seems to be one problem and I keep thinking that today I am seeing another problem because it started up so well this morning and ran for 11 minutes. But these 2 problems (carb + ignition) may be related. I don't know enough to tell. Thanks.

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Bob

11-20-2004 12:10:32




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Take a spare spark plug, and bend the gap open to 3/16", and use it as spark tester. Get someone to activate the starter while you watch for spark.

A spark that just jumps a normal plug gap may not be "hot" enough to ignite the pressurized charge in the cylinder.

The idea of manually operating the points is OK, but actually cranking the engine and checking for spark gives you a more accurate idea of how much spark you have under cranking conditions, which lower the battery voltage.

If the spark jumps the 3/16" gap OK, and the engine seems to be getting gas, try removing the spark plugs, and (safely, away from gas and vapors) heating the tips with a propane torch to burn them clean, and reinstall.

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Dave D

11-20-2004 12:18:43




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Bob, 11-20-2004 12:10:32  
third party image

One thing I forgot to add. These plug have about 4 hours on them; put 'em in last weekend. As part of my investigation, I pulled one this morning and it looked dang near brand new.

Allan has inspired me so I will try to post a picture of this tractor taken in a happier moment...not today!

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Bob

11-20-2004 12:26:39




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 12:18:43  
It doesn't matter how many hours there are on the plugs. "Flooding" the engine ONCE with modern no-lead gas is enough to screw up the plugs. Heating them may work, or replacement may be needed.

Not that I'm saying for sure that's why it won't start, but if you're really smelling gas, and the ignition system is OK, it sure is a likely possibility.



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old

11-20-2004 11:51:47




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 Re: 240 won't start -- any thoughts in reply to Dave D, 11-20-2004 11:38:12  
Well since you can't turn it over and check the spark, pull the disb cap off and with one hand and key on hold the coil wire close to the block, etc. With the other hand and a screw driver with a good plastic handle open the points and see if you have spark, if so thats not the problem if no spark you have ignition trouble. Be careful if you goof when trying to open the points it will let you know you have spark the hard way ouch.

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