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Timing questions

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 01:42:37




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Hello-

I finally got my B to deliver a decent looking spark to all 4 cylinders, gapped them, set the points, sprayed some starting fluid in...and nothing.

When I installed the head gasket, I didn't adjust the valve clearances, because somewhere I read that it wasn't necessary until after I retorqued it. Would that have a bearing on this?

I don't understand how to time the magneto to the engine, for this one reason...everything is keyed! I followed the instructions, but no matter what, I have to either move the engine a little, or move the magneto lug a little...and since everything is keyed, what's the point? Obviously I'm not fully understanding something.

Also, when I put the governor gear back on, I lined up the punch mark to the other punch mark...they were side by side. Is this correct?

Thanks.

ffolkes

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Geoff NY

08-27-2004 16:53:08




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 01:42:37  
It seems like no one addressed the valve question yet, unless I missed it. If you did not set your valves at least close there is little chance that a motor will run. Too loose and they don"t open, too tight and they don"t close. Yes, you will have to reset them after you retorque the head, but they should both be set hot. With the mag, if you have fire, more than likely you will get some fire. Good luck

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 18:37:06




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to Geoff NY, 08-27-2004 16:53:08  
As per Bob's advice, I reset the valves...cold...since it doesn't run. ;)

Assuming I get it to run, how long should I run it before I retorque the head?

Thanks.

ffolkes



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Steve W (NY)

08-27-2004 06:56:05




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 01:42:37  
It's frustrating isn't it? I just went through this with my BN, and she's purring like a kitten now. Here's all the mistakes I made.

As for getting the timing on the font gears...there are two sets of marks. One with 2 punch marks, and one set with one. The cam and crank are aligned to one set, and the governor to the other. The marks were faint, so I can see how a mistake can be made. Luckily, unless you took the cam out, the cam to crank alignment is OK, and you can see the alignment of the gov/mag drive gear by removing the governor. I'd double check this first.

Get your piston at TDC on number one. A hand crank maes this easy. Take all four plugs out. It's not neccasary, but again, it makes it easier. Put your thumb over #1 (front of engine), and rotate the engine, til you can feel air being pushed out at your thumb. Stop as soon as this starts. Put a smll wooden dowel into the spark hole, and feel the piston come up until it stops. Likely you will have to do this a few times before you get a feel for TDC. If you turn the engine 2 complete revolutions you can be sure you are still in the compression stroke.

Next. The mag turns clockwise looking from the back of the tractor. Look at your cap it has a mark for the number 1 wire at about 2 O'clock looking from the rear. Take the cap off, and the rotate the mag so that the rotor is pointing to this position. I like to "trip" mine and rotate it back a little till it's pointing in the right position.

Put it on. As you mentioned, it's keyed, so if you do the above steps, there isn't much chance to screw this up.

The firing order is printed right there in big letters on your block. Connect the 2 o'clock connection on your cap to #1, and following clockwise, connect the rest of the plugs in order. Now, it should start.

Of course mine didn't. No matter what I tried it wouldn't fire. I finally took the plugs out and sprayed a little gas in each cylinder, closed it back up and it fired for a rev or two. Darn....not getting gas. I took the carb off, dropped the float bowl, and then took out all the jets, soaked them and put them back. My problem was that there is a tube with a bunch of holes that meters gas, and they were all plugged. Blew those all out, made a gasket for the carb, put it on, hit the hand crank.....purrrrr r!

Now about the hand crank.....I don't recomend the hand crank for your first start up, as the timing will only be close. A backfire will cause a kickback, which can hurt and break stuff (arms, thumbs, etc.)

Let us know how it goes.

Take Care
Steve

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 08:04:12




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 Right about that, but still no go in reply to Steve W (NY), 08-27-2004 06:56:05  
I aligned it to the wrong set of marks before. Now I was able to time the magneto just like everyone said, and it trips right at TDC.

Still doesn't fire though.

Could something have happened to my magneto to make it give a weak spark, just from taking it off and steel brushing it? One thing that I'm suspicious of is, I used Engine-Brite and water. I was very careful not to get the lug side wet, but I'm sure some water got one it. I'm guessing there's an oil seal there, but seeing as I was cleaning it with brake cleaner just before, and all the brake cleaner disappeared, I think that seal failed.

How hard is it to ensure nothing inside looks bad? I read that the iron core can get rusted, and result in a weak spark.

To all those that replied to my previous posts, thanks for your help!

ffolkes

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MagMan

08-27-2004 09:49:50




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 Re: Right about that, but still no go in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 08:04:12  
DEAR FFOLKS I have been rebuilding H4 magnetos since I was 15 years old. I gave you my phone # and everything. I take it you sprayed the impulse with your cleaner. Under neath that there is a spring that has like a cardboard seal in it to soak up oil and there is alot of room in the housing. Thats probly where your spray went. If you take the 4 screws out of the coil cap and look under the coil you will see the magnet if its clean in there when you tip it its ok look for moisture under that cap. If you have spark at the plugs and its in time and the valves are opening it must be a fuel problem, Stop using the either.Put 3 or 4 small caps of gas in the carb opening and hold your hand over the carb and turn it over and see what happens. If it pops or back fires you have it 180 off. Let us know. and here is a link for a rebuilt mag if you want I also give money for exchange. JON
Link

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scotty

08-27-2004 04:57:40




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 01:42:37  
ffolkes,
Remove your flywheel access cover under the tractor. There is a line scribed on the flywheel that needs to be in line with the cast pointer on the cover. When you find it, mark it with a white marker. Remove your #1 sparkplug. Have someone hand crank the motor until compression stroke is felt at the plug. Turn motor until TDC line is at the proper place on flywheel. Insert magneto so that your rotor points to your #1 plug wire. Have your magneto loose enough so that you can turn it by hand. Have your magneto turned ccw were the coil cover is close to the engine block. Have someone hand crank motor through this cycle again and come up slowly on your TDC line on flywheel. When that lines up, slowly turn your magneto cw towards you until impulse coupling clicks, then tighten magneto in place. Hope this helps.

scotty

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Nebraska Cowman

08-27-2004 04:20:27




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 01:42:37  
you need to understand two things. 1. the valves must open and FULLY close before the engine will run.
2. the spark must be delivered to each cylinder as it comes up to top dead center on compression stroke.



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ffolkes

08-27-2004 06:47:25




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 Getting too long... in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 08-27-2004 04:20:27  
I'm starting back here because this thread is getting to long horizontally. ;)

I'm wondering if the spark isn't strong enough. At best I can draw a spark 1/8" away (from a grounded part) when coming directly off the magneto. I've heard people talk of 1/4" and 5/16" sparks, which are totally beyond what I'm getting.

I know the spark is occurring at TDC, or at least very close to it. With radpid hand cranking, it should at least produce one explosion since I'm using starting fluid. I tried putting the old plugs back in, same result. I could regap the points, but I don't think a .001" error would result in not one explosion.

ffolkes

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 04:55:48




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 08-27-2004 04:20:27  
I see your point with #1.

However, this is my second post regarding #2, and people just don't understand what I'm saying. (if that sounded rude, I didn't mean for it to)

How can I adjust the timing of something, when it's all keyed? There's nothing to adjust. I'm obviously misunderstanding something. The magneto/distributor is effectively keyed to the governor gear via the lugs, and the governor gear is "keyed" via the punch marks to the crankshaft gear. I'm obviously overlooking something.

I appreciate yours, and everyone else's patience.

ffolkes

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Nebraska Cowman

08-27-2004 05:19:22




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 04:55:48  
No, ffolkes, you are not being rude and I am not trying to be a smart a$$ neither. a. The distributor gear could be wrong.
b. The magneto drive can go on 2 ways, (hence 180° off)
c. There are gears in the magneto itself that have to be in time.
d. The spark plug wires have to be on in the right order.



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williamf

08-27-2004 06:52:45




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 08-27-2004 05:19:22  
When I replaced the coil on my H I put it back together with the mag drive 180* off. It had been one of those snowballing jobs, involved things like cutting a new slot in a screw with a sidegrinder before I could get the old one out. I was so beat by the time I got it back together that rather than take it back off I just shifted the sparkplug wires around two sockets on the distributor cap. It"s been running great ever since.
Trick will be never to forget what I"ve done.
Wm

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 05:40:43




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to Nebraska Cowman, 08-27-2004 05:19:22  
Finally, I understand what everyone means. Turn the entire magneto body...I was thinking just the lug, hence why I was saying what difference would it make, it could only go 180 degrees either direction. Now it makes sense though.

New problem...I can't get it to trip. I've already turned it fully clockwise, and it doesn't trip. If I then turn the engine, it doesn't trip until about 1/2 an inch after the TDC mark.

I'm 99% sure the governor gear is aligned properly. What else could cause that?

Thanks.

ffolkes

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Nebraska Cowman

08-27-2004 05:56:18




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 05:40:43  
trips half inch after TDC mark on flywheel? That would be about right. half inch on smaller front pulley might be a little slow.
You might have to pull the drive and move the gear one tooth.



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MagMan

08-27-2004 05:52:20




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 05:40:43  
#1 Piston at front of motor Take a small piece of wire long but small diameter and find when the #1 piston is at the top of the compression stroke Hand crank with finger in hole to see when its coming up on compression then use the wire when its at the derect top look at your timing marks and see if they are in line with the pointer or not.Then check and see where your rotor is pointing should be at # 1 on cap also. JON

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ffolkes

08-27-2004 06:34:06




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to MagMan, 08-27-2004 05:52:20  
I did as you suggested, and found the markings to be about right.

If I take the plug out, and ground the case of it, I get a spark.

I took the valve cover off, and I noticed after about 3 or 4 full revolutions, I hear a gurgling sound coming from "below". The only liquid in here at this point is oil. Is this normal?

Thanks.

ffolkes



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scotty

08-27-2004 06:44:24




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 06:34:06  
Yes, thats your oil pump.

scotty



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Bob

08-27-2004 06:44:19




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 06:34:06  
If you have the air tube to the oil bath air cleaaner hooked up, the noise you hear COULD be the intake air being pulled through the oil bath, or bubbling back, if you have a valve too tight.

You MUST check the valves before starting, because if one or more are too tight, they will not close completely, and leak off compression, and possibly begin to "burn", if you get the engine started. You don"t have to set them quite as accurately as you"ll want to when you make the final setting. Just be sure they have AT LEAST the spec"d amount of clearance.

You already know how to find #1 TDC. At that point, set the valves on #1. Then, rotate the engine 180 degrees, and set the valves on #3, the next cylinder in firing order. Then, rotate the engine another 180 degrees, back to the TDC mark, which will now be TDC for #4. Set the valves on #4, and then rotate the engine 180 degrees, and set the valves on #2, the last cylinder in firing order.

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scotty

08-27-2004 06:37:25




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 Re: Timing questions in reply to ffolkes, 08-27-2004 06:34:06  
Yes, thats your oil pump.

scotty



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