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frozen gears

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Diana

08-07-2004 06:50:34




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Howdy all,
Long story short, gears are froze up in my IH 350D.
All was fine and then couldn't get it out of gear.
(actually, a guy working on my driveway did this)
I can feel the shifting isn't correct. It doesn't fall into place. Sorta feels like it's in neutral but I think it's actually stuck in 3rd.
I can baby it to go forward, but am running out of "forward space". I popped the clutch while trying to get it into reverse and it did shift, but then stalled. Then popped out of reverse.
I read on a previous post to raise the rear end and try to turn the tire and it might come loose.
Before I go through this, does this sound like a reasonable thing to do? Hubby says "forks" are stuck and two gears are trying to work at the same time.
I haven't taken the plate off to see what's in there yet.
Finally got to use this thing after having it all fixed so it starts easy and all and had to sit and look at it for 6 weeks while recovering from rotator cuff surgery! I did get to mow the fields with no problem, but now, here I sit looking at it again, wanting to play with piles of barn litter that need moved. Any help would be appreciated!
Thanks!
Diana

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Jim Becker

08-07-2004 18:19:07




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 06:50:34  
Your problem is allowed to happen because of worn parts: the tip of the shift lever, the rails and the guides that hold the rail to the bottom of the transmission cover. Just building up the tip of the lever usually brings things back far enough to eliminate the problem for a long time. On the other hand, careful shifting can avoid it for a long time as well.

We had an A on the farm that would do this once in a while. One day it happened and I went to get some tools to remove the transmission cover (much easier than on a 350). By the time I got back, dad had fixed it by just playing with the shift lever. Eventually I got so I could do that and I think my younger brother did as well.

On the business of pulling the TA lever to make it shift easier, linkage from the clutch to the TA is supposed to effectively do the same thing. Pulling the TA only makes a difference if the linkage is out of adjustment. I have known of people that habitually pulled the TA lever to shift for years, with no evident additional problems from doing it.

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Hugh MacKay

08-07-2004 14:55:12




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 06:50:34  
Diana: Your good better half and the guys like Jim. lee and MN Scott that suggested rebuilding the end of the shift lever back to it's original shape are correct. Yes tractors that have been run with TA out of adjustment will be a small factor. However you know better than to run your tractor with the TA out of adjustment, that is a fact I know. I cant believe that anyone ever operated a TA equiped tractor with TA out of adjustment long enough to wear the shift lever.

The single biggest factor here is tractors that have done loader work for the past 40 to 60 years. You go out and do one hour of loader work, count your shifts, multiply that out to a 12 hour day, for even 50 days per year out of the past 50 years. Compare that to the tractor that never saw a loader, and in a days plowing, disking or baling, probably only shifted couple dozen times per day. Loader tractors are the answer.

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Diana

08-07-2004 18:58:12




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Hugh MacKay, 08-07-2004 14:55:12  
Thanks to all of you guys! Tom (hubby) took the cover off and lo and behold, the plates were out of kilter. The lever IS worn, almost to a v- shaped tip. Tom greased everything up, springs and all and put it back together and it shifting better than it ever has. And, now I know how to fix it if it does it again. Really not that hard to do. Interestingly, the plates are almost like new from where I was standing with no slop in them at all.
I know the TA is in adjustment because I did it myself by the book. :)
I'm going to look around and see if I can find a new shifter since this one might not even be the right one for this tractor. It's a knuckle buster when shifting into reverse.
I'm careful when shifting, so it should last a while. Tom said if it became a habit and I couldn't find another one, he would weld it for me. (ain't he sweet?)
I know I'll NEVER let someone else drive that thing again. No appreciation for by baby.
You guys are just so great and I thank you once again.
Diana

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Jim Becker

08-08-2004 08:01:41




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 18:58:12  
Building up the tip of the shift lever will help the "knuckle busting" problem as well. Wear at the bottom end is multiplied into extra motion required at the top end.



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Hugh MacKay

08-08-2004 13:58:34




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Jim Becker, 08-08-2004 08:01:41  
Jim: That is good advice, she doesn't need the busted knuckles as she is still reeling from the calcium chloride leaking out of the old 350 last winter, across the floor and under Tom's restored Camaro, I think, maybe even a Vette.

I think domestic harmony was strained a bit, but it looks like Tom still supports the tractor idea. This is what happens to a country boy, who decides not to farm, marries a city girl, they build a house on 45 acres of the family farm. He leaves her home to raise a family and tend the 45 acres with a father in law as advisor. I'm just teasing her a bit, she is up for it. But can't you just imagine having job, and coming home to a good better half with all these toys, and the ideas to go with them.

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Diana

08-08-2004 14:19:45




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Hugh MacKay, 08-08-2004 13:58:34  
Yup Hugh, ya hit the nail on the head there, and you are SO funny!
Tom rolls his eyes many times during a given week because of me. I pride myself in that.
Thank God he has the patience of Job with me.
Shoulda seen him when he and the boys went to town and I decided to start the mowing a couple of weeks ago. It was killing me not to use that tractor while recovering from surgery and I couldn't take it anymore. They come home, he runs out in the field and I got a total thrashing for being on the tractor. Orders me OFF and he hops up there and finishes the work.
I tend to wonder if all of his talk about never wanting to farm is just bull, cause he sure looks like he is enjoying himself up there. Just doesn't want to admit it to me.
Didn't think about the play in the shifter having to do with busting my knuckles. Another reason for fixing it! Diana

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Hugh MacKay

08-08-2004 03:51:56




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 18:58:12  
Diana: I wouldn't put off rebuilding the end of that shift lever. You can break gears if you happen to get into two gears and let the clutch out. This will happen when going from 1st to 2nd, 3rd to 4th, etc. It does not come out of gear you are shifting from, plus goes into the one you are shifting to. I broke the gears up quite badly on my Farmall 300 shifting from 3rd to 4th. Replaced the gears and a couple of bearings, but never did get completely rid of a slight noise. I suspect there was a shaft sprung a bit.

You have to build that end so it is close to being a rectangle as it was when new. The aprox. size is about 5/16 x 5/8 inch. It should nicely fill the notch in the shifting rail. I like to build the lever just a bit over size with weld and then grind it enough to give smooth shifting. It is almost a perfect rectangle with slightly rounded corners.

The likely hood of you finding another shift lever in good shape is not great. 45 years ago we were rebuilding those on loader tractors every 5 years. Even the tractors that never had loaders will be worn by now. Most guys figure they are the first to have this problem, not so, I'll bet my dad had done a couple before I was 16.

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Diana

08-09-2004 06:51:08




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 Re: frozen gears....length of shifer? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 08-08-2004 03:51:56  
>>The aprox. size is about 5/16 x 5/8 inch. It should nicely fill the notch in the shifting rail. <<

Hugh, Tom wants to know if there's any way to find a length as well as the measurements you gave? His assumption is that it is worn in length as well, but how to figure how much more length you need?

Thanks!
Diana



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Hugh MacKay

08-09-2004 14:27:23




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 Re: frozen gears....length of shifer? in reply to Diana, 08-09-2004 06:51:08  
Diana: You've got me stumped. To start with I'm not sure the Utility is same as the Farmall. It has been a few years so I wouldn't even have length for the Farmall. The Farmall shift lever had a base that bolted to top of transmission with three bolts. You removed that base with shift lever, and by putting a straight edge across you could get measurment to bottom of shifting rail notch. I'm not sure the Utility has that 3 bolt base. If it does that makes it easy, you just put the bolts in but not tight, hold the base down with your hand and do the shifting. When you can go through the shifts smoothly without that base jumping then it should be safe to bolt down.

If you have it a bit too long it wont move freely from one rail to the next. It's kind of a trial and error type thing. as I said before build it a bit oversize both thickness and length, then grind to make it right. It is a good idea to try it several times as you do the grinding. It will spoil 2 or 3 hours on you.

I hope I have made this clear, if you have question don't hesitate to ask.

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Diana

08-09-2004 14:37:54




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 Re: frozen gears....length of shifer? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 08-09-2004 14:27:23  
Thanks Hugh, I totally understand what you are saying. I think it's 5 bolts, but that is irrelevent, really. Still the same concept.
I know Tom has a bunch of weird measuring devices, so surely one of them can get the height near correct. I guess I have to assume that if it is shifting at all, it has to be within .5" or it wouldn't "move the groove". If I recall, that is about how deep the inset was. I'm sure Tom can figure it out. He does all sorts of tool and dye stuff at work. Just a matter of getting him to do it....soon! He went to a swap meet yesterday and got yet another hood for his Camaro, so he'll want to tinker with it for a while. He has a hood for each scoop he puts on the car!! Makes for nice wallpaper in the barn when he hangs them all next to each other. Ha Ha Ha!
He also bought me a replica JD miniature tractor. Can you believe it when there was just recently a thread about green vs. red? He said he figures it won't be long till I have a real one. I told him the parts are too expensive for my taste and I just love the one I have. He said "we'll see". Kinda scary!
Thanks again for the help. I'll get back here when he has it fixed, unless another question creeps up.
Have a great week, Diana

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Jim Becker

08-09-2004 19:05:27




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 Re: frozen gears....length of shifer? in reply to Diana, 08-09-2004 14:37:54  
I think the method you and Hugh worked through will work fine for getting the length back. I also have a hunch you will find it is still pretty close to its original length.



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Diana

08-08-2004 06:13:39




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Hugh MacKay, 08-08-2004 03:51:56  
Hi Hugh,
You're right. I couldn't find a new one. Tom is extremely busy at work right now, so I will have to wait a little bit to have it done. As far as two gears at the same time, Tom sorta figured this is what had happened, so it does need some work soon. I really think the clutch isn't quite right, too. Sometimes when I push the pedal all the way down, I can hear a whishing sound. I just know it isn't a noise that is supposed to be there. When I had sent the tractor in for it's mechanical makeover, the guy said he adjusted the clutch "a little bit", even though I told him not to touch it. I'll have to re-check the adjustment on that and hope that it's the reason for the sound. Thanks for the advice. I sure appreciate it!
Diana

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BobP

08-07-2004 09:12:50




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 06:50:34  
I had a 400 one time that would stick in gear found that if there is a lot of transmission pressure it would be hard to shift. By pulling the T.A. it free up for easier shifting.
Usually when the fork slip"s out it is because of worn shifter and pressure on the transmission making it shift harder.

Bob



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Diana

08-07-2004 11:02:33




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to BobP, 08-07-2004 09:12:50  
>>>By pulling the T.A. it free up for easier shifting.<<<


Bob, would this apply if the TA wasn't in use at the time?

Thanks!



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daniel

08-07-2004 13:31:29




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 11:02:33  
my M farall tractor done the same thing. i would take the shifting stick out and align the gears again. i hope i was of some help. good luck with the tractor.



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Jim Becker

08-07-2004 07:33:18




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 06:50:34  
Listen to your hubby. He is right this time.

There is a pin crosswise that holds the lever in place. Knock the pin out to remove the lever. Then use a pry bar to pop the forks all back into neutral. The notch in each fork should be in line, centered. Reinstall the lever and you are back in business.



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lee

08-07-2004 10:15:57




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Jim Becker, 08-07-2004 07:33:18  
I did this exact fix on a MF135 last week. Guy had the tractor in first gear. He was off the seat working at the side of the tractor. He wanted to put it in neutral for some reason. He deppressed the clutch with one hand and shifted it to neutral with the other. The shifter came to neutral but the tractor was still in first. He had apparently pulled the shifter off to the side as well as toward neutral when he shifted it. If your tractor is prone to this problem, shift it straight in and out of gears.
Side loading the shifter will aggravete the problem.

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Diana

08-07-2004 11:08:28




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to lee, 08-07-2004 10:15:57  
>>He deppressed the clutch with one hand and shifted it to neutral with the other. The shifter came to neutral but the tractor was still in first. He had apparently pulled the shifter off to the side as well as toward neutral when he shifted it. If your tractor is prone to this problem, shift it straight in and out of gears.<<

Lee, when I run my tractor, knowing how hard parts are to get, I am very careful about shifting. We had a guy here putting sand down for a new pad we were having put on the driveway and he was too lazy to shovel (even though we paid him "labor")

He asked to use the tractor, which I tried to discourage by telling him it was low on fuel but he checked the fuel!! I'm a softy and said to go ahead and use it then. I believe he didn't press down all the way on the clutch and didn't wait for the gear to disengage before he shifted to another gear.
Sorta ticks me off, but I learned a lesson and that is how to say NO!
:)

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Diana

08-07-2004 07:36:56




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Jim Becker, 08-07-2004 07:33:18  
Thanks Jim!
I am wondering...since this happened once, is that indicative of it happening again?

Since hubby is right "this time" I think I'm going to beg for him to do the deed. :)

Diana



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MN Scott

08-07-2004 08:28:44




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to Diana, 08-07-2004 07:36:56  
You can prevent it from happening again by building up the tip of the shifter by welding on it and reshaping it. That way it will not slip out of the notches in the shifter rails.



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Diana

08-07-2004 11:10:30




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 Re: frozen gears in reply to MN Scott, 08-07-2004 08:28:44  
>>>You can prevent it from happening again by building up the tip of the shifter by welding on it and reshaping it. That way it will not slip out of the notches in the shifter rails<<<

Thanks!

I copied and pasted this and will give it to hubby. He's good at welding and making things.
:)



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