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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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making smaller tractors with more h.p these days.

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Farmallkid

07-20-2004 11:17:26




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Hi, On Sat, my dad and i drove tractors at the R&M classic carshow in chatham ont, You may of heard of it as canada's biggest carshow. They had over 3000 cars there, they were expecting 10,000 people, they got 35,000 people there. We moved about 15,000 with the people movers, We used a CASE JXU 90 and a JXU 100, the 90 has 77hp and the 100 has 85hp, they are nice tractors, they are small to, they seem to be making smaller tractors with more horses these days.

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Paul in Mich

07-20-2004 19:02:24




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 Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p these d in reply to Farmallkid, 07-20-2004 11:17:26  
Farmallkid, many if not most of the new tractor manufacturers rate HP as raw HP direct from the flywheel without any drag. What is not considered is that it takes X amount of HP to propel the tractor, X amount to operate the alternator, X amount to operate the hydraulic system, X amount to drive the power steering unit. Older tractors were rated by drawbar HP, and belt HP which was slightly higher because the amount of HP to propel the tractor itself wasnt factored in to belt HP. My opinion is that even if they rated the new tractors HP, using the same criteria as the older ones that they would still come up short. Plus, the newer ones operate at twice the RPM's as the older ones. Lets see them run at 1,500 or 1,800 RPM's and see how much they will pull. Its like measuring watts in a stereo. 100 watts running through one channel is much different than 100 watts running through 4 channels. The best you get in that case is 25 watts per channel. Marketing specialists will always fudge figures in favor of the the highest figure they can get away with, and its up to the buyer to figure it all out.

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scotc

07-29-2004 08:20:33




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 Re: Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p the in reply to Paul in Mich, 07-20-2004 19:02:24  
CNH and others are starting to use the flywheel HP for the numbers in their model. The jxu100 is about the same horse as our 4240, which is little more than a glorified 684 utility.



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Joe Evans

07-20-2004 12:28:06




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 Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p these d in reply to Farmallkid, 07-20-2004 11:17:26  
Yes, new tractors are packing a lot of HP in smaller packages these days. Many advertise their HP using the flywheel or gross engine HP. I have a 1985 Kubota L275, while not a "new" machine, probably resides in the X generation of machines. It was sold to me as a 27.5 HP tractor--hence the 275 model number. The L275 was tested at Nebraska where they rate tractors at the PTO (in that era) and at the drawbar. The L275 registered 23 PTO HP during its test. That is a 16% drop off from the advertised figure, but 27.5 HP sounds better. I will flat guarantee you a Ford 8N will pull my Kubota (2WD) all over heck's half acre if the two were hitched together. The 8N is about 50% beefier.

Something to consider with new tractors and maybe especially so with small to mid-sized units, and that is a lot of them do work where drawbar and PTO is not a consideration. There is a local Mahindra dealer with a number of tractors on his lot: dang few of them are not equipped with loaders. So flywheel HP is providing the hydraulic system breakout force AND the tractive effort of the chassis is providing the stockpile crowd force. In other words, these new tractors are called upon to do work besides dragging a disk or running a bat-wing mower thru the PTO.

Another factor is that in the older days of two-wheel drive, the only tractive force was provided by the rear wheels, and to maximize that, additional weight was often added to the already substantial chassis heft. With the overall new tractors sold being 4-wheel drive and FWA, the same tractive force can be achieved with a relatively smaller tractor. One thing leads to another--a designer might say "this 4,000# 4WD chassis we've got can efficiently utilize a 50 HP mill", whereas years ago with 2WD, that engine figure might have been around 35.

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Ken

07-20-2004 22:06:37




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 Re: Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p the in reply to Joe Evans, 07-20-2004 12:28:06  
I also have a Kubota (L245) that was rated at 24.5 h.p. in the brochure that I received when new. But if anyone has visited tractor dealers in the last 10 years most all post P.T.O. h.p.
At least Ford/New Holland, Deere, and Kubota.



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Hugh MacKay

07-22-2004 04:21:23




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 Re: Re: Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p in reply to Ken, 07-20-2004 22:06:37  
Ken: While I agree with what you are saying, these guys don't state in their specs that this is Nabraska test horse power. When I was a young lad in the 50s and 60s all manufacturers were quick to give you the Nebraska test results. I'd be willing to bet if you walked into a new tractor dealership today and asked for all three; flywheel, pto and drawbar horsepower, 90% of the sales people would look at you as though you had two heads. In fact they can't give you the answer because they don't know the answer. Oh for the days when salesmen didn't have college educations.

I bought a number of new tractors in my day and much of the decission was made based on all three horse power ratings. If you get a wide spread between flywheel and the other two you know the tractor is not very efficient. There will always be a spread, but you look for the tractor with the least spread. Manufacturers don't want you to know these spreads today, precicely because it has gotten so far out of line. Tractors since 1980 don't hold a candle to the pre 1970 tractors.

Just wait and see if the CaseIH 25 hp tractor of 2004 is still around in 2054, in the numbers like the the SA are today. I will wager that in 2054 there will be more operating Super A's around than 2004 models. I use that just as an example, if you site the H or M same will be true.

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rustyfarmall

07-20-2004 11:36:50




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 Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p these d in reply to Farmallkid, 07-20-2004 11:17:26  
The horsepower figures on the new small tractors are impressive at first glance, but I have my doubts that those figures are determined the same way that the old tractors were rated. I think the new compact tractors measure horsepower at the engine flywheel, rather than at the PTO, as was done with the old tractors. In other words, if a Farmall M is rated 36 horsepower at the PTO, the horsepower at the flywheel would be much greater. I don't know how much, but I would not be afraid to put a good old M up against any of the new 50 horsepower rated tractors, even though the M is rated at less power.

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Hugh MacKay

07-20-2004 13:38:59




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 Re: Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p the in reply to rustyfarmall, 07-20-2004 11:36:50  
Rusty: Your absolutely right. A few years back a friend and I each wanted a 7 or 8 mounted rotary hoe. We bought a new John Deere 400, 15' is the smallest. Since it is made up of two 3.5' sections and two 4' sections, we cut the tool bar at the 7-8 foot mark. He took the 3 point attachments, and we made up a 1 point fast for my SA. Before I left his place with my half, we hooked his 8 footer to the 2350 John Deere. It was early in spring and in length of field two spots were a bit soft, caused the Deere to belch black smoke. I thought now I've wasted some money, SA won't pull the 7 'rotary hoe. Surprise, Super A plays with the 7' rotary hoe even in soft spots.

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little john

07-20-2004 11:30:10




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 Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p these d in reply to Farmallkid, 07-20-2004 11:17:26  
Sounds like a great event. The weather must have cooperated.



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Farmallkid

07-20-2004 15:30:28




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 Re: Re: making smaller tractors with more h.p the in reply to little john, 07-20-2004 11:30:10  
Ya it was a great event, My friend was pulling the people movers in the morning, i took over at 12:30, He came back at 2:30 and asked for the tractor, then i could look at the show, i said NO, i'd rather drive the tractor. My brother went in and saw the show, he was talking about the cars that were in there, Now i wish a little bit that i would have went in, owell i had fun haulin humans! They had the BATMOBILE there along with the guy that made it, and a nice I-H steak truck.

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