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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken.

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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 05:06:24




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Guy & Ken: An earlier post by LeRoy on similarities and differences between 404, 424 and 444 has turned into some International differences, re: the 444 being different in US and in Canada. Could you guys take a look at this and air your comments and opinions. It is currently on page one but probably soon going to page two.




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LeRoy

05-11-2004 18:04:01




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 Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 05:06:24  

Well, this is interesting. Learning more about these tractors and need to take a look at the British counterpart. What I find interesting is that I don't see many for sale. The one that peeked my interest was a tired one which was said to run well. I suspect most are still at work in some way. If one was to find one (404, 424 or 444) in nice condition what would you expect the price range would be? I'm assuming these all had the 3pt hitch and could be wrong.

LeRoy

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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 17:07:34




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 Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 05:06:24  
To Ken, Harold, Ben, Rob and Farmalldan, one big THANK YOU on this. Guy Fay we will excuse you, as you must have been otherwise detained today. 20 years ago I bought the book 150 Years of IH by CH Wendel. One of the first things I noticed was the 444 did not look like the one I was familiar with. Wendel's photos being black and white, made it just a bit hard to determine exactly what was different. To me it looked like the British casting I was used to but with different styling on hood, grill and fenders. I also noticed the swept back front axle common to US built IH Utility tractors.

As you can see I let 20 years pass without the question, so it wasn't a top priority item to me. I was always kind of a Farmall man, so you see where I'm coming from. What I did see however were US and Canadian participants in the same YT discussions, trying to help one another, yet discussing two different tractors. These kinds of discussions are a bit painful to watch. So I waited my chance to wade in. I just hope I didn't spoil LeRoy's thread re: 404, 424 and 444. So when you see someone ask a question about a 424 or 444 tractor, ask first if it is a B for British or U for US

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Farmalldan

05-11-2004 09:52:55




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 Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 05:06:24  
Hugh, somewhere I have seen a picture of the "skidded" chassis coming in from Britain(maybe Wendal's "150 Years Of IHC"?) for these tractors. The caption indicated that diesel models were brought in with engines and gasoline models without. Also,US assembly plants added gasoline engine, front axle, sheetmetal, wheels and tires, etc. This would explain the differences you are seeing. I just didn't know that there was a British version of the 424 and 444 with different sheetmetal. I suppose those tractors resembled the 275/414.

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Harold H

05-11-2004 06:12:32




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 Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 05:06:24  
In simple terms, the Farmall and International 404 are completely different from the 424 & 444. The 404 is desended from the C, an American design, while the 424 and 444 are desended from the B-275 & B-414, a British design.

Harold H



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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 08:27:58




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 Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Harold H, 05-11-2004 06:12:32  
Harold: I know all of that, my question in all of this, is why did the US 444 have completely different sheet metal from the British and Canadian 444. The sheet metal is all including fenders completely different design. The British and Canadian 444 also used straight front axle whereas the US 444 had a swept back front axle very similar to the 404 and 240.

I know the Canadian tractors were shipped in from Britain complete, I have seen them being unloaded at Halifax. To me it looks as though the US 444 was assembled in the US using British power train only. As such will they have two completely separate runs of serial numbers?

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Harold H

05-11-2004 08:52:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 08:27:58  
Hugh,

I've never seen a Canadian/British 444 or even a picture of one, so I did not know the sheet metal was different. The US 444 and 424 tractors were assembled in Louisville. The US 444 should have different serial numbers from the British/Canadian 444's I would think, however I have never looked for a British/Canadian 444 serial number so I can't be 100% posative.

Harold H

Harold H



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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 09:25:21




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Harold H, 05-11-2004 08:52:08  
Harold: Thank you for that. When I refered to the swept back front axle it was Utilities I was refering to. The fenders on the British and Canadian 444 were similar in appearance to 460-560 fenders. You confirmed as I expected that US 444 were indeed assembled in the US, so they probably did have a different model designation. If you go to YT photo gallery type in 414, 434, B-275, etc. you will see the axle I speak of. I will try and find a Photo of the British 444. It will become obvious to you that a good portion of the US 444 was manufactured there. Basic power train is all that is British.

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Bermuda Ken

05-11-2004 05:56:26




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 Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 05:06:24  
My comments on "foreign made" IH tractors that were brought to North America would be.....if the tractor were offered in both the USA and CANADA it was made with slight differences.

It seems that CANADA received more of the "pure UK" built tractors that the USA did. The CANADIAN safety standards, laws of operation, ect all were factors in how these tractor were built.



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Hugh MacKay

05-11-2004 08:43:21




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 Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Bermuda Ken, 05-11-2004 05:56:26  
Ken: I guess what I am driving at here is something we discussed in another thread a few days ago. The 444 tractor sold in the US had completely different design in all sheet metal in cluding fenders from the British and Canadian models. The British and Canadian 444 also had a straight front axle whereas the US 444 had a swept back axle very similar to the 240 and 404 Utilities. I know completely manufactured and assembled British 444 were imported into Canada. Would the US version of the 444 have been assembled in the US using only basic British power train? Would the US tractors have had a completely different run of serial numbers and different model designation?

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Rob in Md

05-11-2004 14:56:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 08:43:21  
In 1963 IHC's Farm Equipment Division decided to blend the best of the 404 with the British B 414 to make the 424. It used the B-414's diesel engine with an IPTO, while absorbing the I-404's swept back axle and better looks. This arrangement accepted the full range of accessories industrial customers wanted, taken from parts bins without need to import the modifications. This allowed the 424 to be production ready in 9 months instead of starting from scratch, which would have taken 3-4 years. These were shipped to Louisville(powertrain on skids) and assembled. So from what I have been able to gather thus far, tractors assembled in Britain did not receive these modifications and hopefully helps to explain the differences in the Canadian and U.S. models.
I found this info in Randy Leffingwell's book "International Harvester Tractors".

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Ben in KY

05-11-2004 09:13:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Attention Guy Fay, bermuda ken. in reply to Hugh MacKay, 05-11-2004 08:43:21  
Hugh,
the British built 444's SN begins with B the US buit/assembled ones SN begins with a U. The front axles are different on some and the British built ones have Lucas electrical whereas the US built ones have Delco Electrical stuff.

The sheetmetal is very close from what I have seen. The tractors came with an optional heavy duty cast front grill. Mine has the sheet metal one :(

The transmission and rearend is the same as some Mahindra models still produced. Mahindra were licensed to manufacture this series of IH tractor.

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