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Dishonest Seller

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Al

04-29-2004 09:28:33




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I'm in a bit of a quandary. I have a close friend that purchased a tractor from a guy unseen. He has done this before with no problems but this particular Seller clearly lies about his tractors.The Buyer realizes that its a Buyer Beware situation and isn't crying about it. How ever we hate to see others burned by an unethical seller. This guy has a SMTA currently advertised for sell and marketed as " premium " with a very high price on it. We would bet that any Buyer that purchases this tractor unseen will be disappointed. I'm sure its not allowed ( for good reason ) to give name or location but please beware.

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BigRedOne

05-01-2004 16:05:58




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
Al,

Was his name Tony...I just got lied to big time on a purchase....there are a lot of bad people in this world. (and liars are some of the worst)



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Chris Brown

04-30-2004 06:01:03




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
If someone screwed me over,I would put their name and address all over the internet ,with a description of what they did. I'd dare them to dispute it.



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mtaphotoad

04-29-2004 15:44:18




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
Let's be careful not to create any confusion over high dollar super mta sellers as being unethical. I certainly would not want my reputation to be determined by what folks might be able to misinterperet by reading your post.



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Al

04-29-2004 16:18:26




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 Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to mtaphotoad, 04-29-2004 15:44:18  
Thats fair . This is the dilimma. Do we just ignore situations like this or do we attempt to help others? I don't know the answer but it doesn't feel right to just let someone else get burned.One person says " don't give a name or location while another says let it all hang out ". I quess I like Ebays system where you can give both positive and negative feedback. Over time you get a good idea of the type of people you are dealing with. In the meantime Buyer Beware.
This particular situation probably cost the Buyer $2000 to correct--not a big sum to this person but a bunch to a lot of folks on this forum.

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Hugh MacKay

04-29-2004 13:44:04




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
Al: In my opinion, anyone who buys anything in excess of $500. sight unseen has rocks in his head. Further to this I wouldn't send $0.05 to someone who's reputation I knew nothing of. There is an old saying around this part of country,"Fools and their money are soon parted." Now cut the crap.



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TRACTORHEAD

04-30-2004 06:48:06




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 Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 13:44:04  
wondering, where do fools get there money in the first place???



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Paul in Mich

04-30-2004 07:06:14




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 Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to TRACTORHEAD, 04-30-2004 06:48:06  
Tractorhead, Some of us work Damned hard for it.



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Jim

04-29-2004 18:30:54




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 Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 13:44:04  
hey Hugh, either you do alot of driving for parts or you don't get much done. if a man has a rare part that you need 2000 miles away and you cant find one closer, do you drive ? since you won't send $.05 to some one you dont know. You better wake up!!!



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Hugh MacKay

04-29-2004 19:14:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Jim, 04-29-2004 18:30:54  
Jim: That is the way it is, it's my money and I'll do as I wish. One thing I learned about playing with old iron, a long time ago. Never be in a rush for anything. I have gotten along quite well with that policy, and I don't need anyone telling me to wake up. Maybe you should read my last post to Al just a few min ago.



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Annomyous

05-01-2004 06:49:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 19:14:30  
I am going to remain annomyous Hugh but you have probably driven-ran a tractor more hours on a Thursday afternoon than most of us have in our entire life counting all 7 days of the week.
It seems funny that there are always these that know more than anyone else. I have wore out several tractors and once purchased a Hydro 70 sight unseen 400 miles away from home and it was one of the biggest mistakes I ever made on machinery purchasing. It was in SW Oklahoma several years ago. I later found out he was a tractor jockey and would do cosmetic fixing up and then sell as (prime) when they were actually rough. I found the tach had been apart when I went to repaint it and found pliar marks holding the glass in. I was only 30 when I made that discusting purchase. I also sold it 2 year later also I later needed something far away and had no time to go look at it and the dealer sent me a video of the tractor and I told him some things I wanted to see and he didn't show them and I sent it back.
Yes Hugh I agree with your method. Time is cheap when compared to a basketcase of a tractor or somekind of equipment

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Hugh MacKay

05-03-2004 02:04:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Annomyous, 05-01-2004 06:49:42  
You make quite a good point, have them send you photos or vidio. I asked a guy last winter to send photos of both sides and both ends of a tractor. Photos of the ends and right side were clear and showed what looked like a very good tractor. The left side photo was so blurred you could barely see outline of tractor, and what looked like a bed sheet stuffed in a hole in block hanging somewhat below frame rail. I e mailed advising his left side photo was not very good. I never heard from him again. I was only using the photos to decide whether to drive a couple hundred miles. Yes you are so right, a picture is as good as a 1000 words.

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Jim

04-30-2004 04:20:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 19:14:30  
Hugh, you always seem to have a lot to say about nothing. I get a lot done in a 14 hr. day, some people can keep busy in a bushel basket. I buy parts on the net, if its cheap i buy. With gas at $2 , i can take a chance..... .



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Hugh MacKay

04-30-2004 14:53:20




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Jim, 04-30-2004 04:20:33  
Jim: You seem like a terribly bitter man. Sounds as though some of those 14 hour days are not as financially rewarding as you would like them to be.



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Dakota Jim

04-30-2004 18:45:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-30-2004 14:53:20  
You must have got up on the wrong side of bed or something Hugh. Whether it's is unctiosly telling someone else to "cut the crap" or tagging someone else as bitter you might give some thought to saying nothing at all if you don't have something worthwhile to say.



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Hugh MacKay

05-01-2004 01:36:32




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Dakota Jim, 04-30-2004 18:45:03  
Jim: Worthwhile is a matter of opinion and I am entitled to my opinion. Now if the turth hurts, so be it.



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Al

04-29-2004 14:01:12




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 Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 13:44:04  
Hugh
I totally agree.I was just looking for a way to remind people not to become too complacent. Know your Seller well or inspect yourself. On the otherhand although we have not met based on your postings I would take my chances with you.
Thanks



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Hugh MacKay

04-29-2004 18:46:50




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 Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 14:01:12  
Al: You really shouldn't trust me, I even do myself in. I have a Farmall 130 here, should have been parted out 10 years ago. In fact I twice started to do that when robbing parts off it for other tractors. Every time I do that, all of a sudden I find a bunch of parts, reasonable to fix it all up and going again. Now by my own accounting the 130 will soon be worth $10,000. Now just look what I did to myself, heaven help me if I'd ever show mercy on you.

I really doubt if there is a whole lot you can do to help anyone. Society has some funny attitudes today. 40 years ago it was, if you bought a new car, truck or tractor, and you beat the dealer down 25% off of list price you were quite proud of yourself. Today you never hear stories like that. The public for the most part want you to know they paid $45,000. for that SUV. Most folks seen to be proud of how much money they can throw around. With attitudes like that there is little you, I or anyone else can do to help.

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Paul in Mich

04-29-2004 21:29:59




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-29-2004 18:46:50  
Hugh, It seems that people think if they pay more for an item, its worth more. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a seller asking 3 times what an item is worth. There is also nothing wrong with not paying his price. However, when someone pays far more than the item is worth, he has only himself to blame if he learns he paid too much. I'm with you, in that there is no way I'm going to be the risk taker when it comes to buying an item sight unseen. I won't pay more than I'm willing to lose. These guys that pay first and inspect later are as you say, "fools soon to be separated from their money". The flip side to that is that if you can inspect an item before buying, you can make a more rational buying decision.

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Hugh MacKay

04-30-2004 02:51:09




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Paul in Mich, 04-29-2004 21:29:59  
Paul: I guess we couldn't chase around the country fast enough to warn these people of all the bad buys. The flip side also is who is anyone to say it is a bad deal from an online auction, photo or classified add.

I was at a consignment auction once, didn't go there to buy a fertilizer spreader. During presale inspection I had walked by a 10' eeze flow fertilizer spreader several time, never even looked at it other than I noticed it had one flat tire. When it came up under the hammer, auctioeer started looking for $200., and quickly he dropped in $25. increments to $100. then by $10. to $70. At that point I put in my bid. Just as I did, someone yells,"it's all seized up." 30 seconds later I had bought a fertilizer spreader. I got it home only to discover the only item seized was the pivot for the lever that opens the slides on bottom of hopper. The agitator, slides, etc were all free. This was as good as a new machine. Was the guy in the croud that yelled fair to the seller? No of course he wasn't. I used that spreader for 10 years and sold it for $300.

How did you make out with the Farmall A front axle. Been watching for smoke on that NW horizon.

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Paul in Mich

04-30-2004 05:41:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Hugh MacKay, 04-30-2004 02:51:09  
Hugh, There are indeed bargains to be had at some of these auctions. I am constantly amazed that some things may go for far more than anyone would expect, or anyone in his right mind should pay, while other things go dirt cheap. John (the guy I work for) has bought several items this spring at a couple of auctions that were real bargains. The first was an 86 Freightliner tandem axle that they couldnt get started at the auction because the battery terminals were corroded. Since it wasnt running, bidding was scarce, and John ended up buying it for $2,700. Someone in the crowd had driven the truck and knew it was in good shape and told us about it. It turned out that it needed only new battery cables to make it road ready. Its going to make a great truck for what we use it for, as we don't put much more than 3,000 miles of any one truck in a year using it only for farm use. I can't wait to drive it in the fall harvest. At an auction a couple weeks later, He bought a 40 ft. Flat-bed trailer for $500. New brakes has it on the road, and is now being used to haul liquid fertilizer. This summer, we'll install sideboards and tailgate and haul grain and corn this fall. At the same sale, he bought a 1980 Ford tandem axle tractor with Cummins Diesel for $600. It too runs great, and only needs a few cosmetics to make a good back up truck. Before we left the auction, someone offered to buy the wet kit for more than the whole truck sold for. Why the guy didnt bid on the truck is anyones guess. We also bought 4ea. 18.4x38 tires with 40% to 50% tread for $25.00 each, and 24 decent truck tires that averaged out to less than $10.00 each. They work well for trailer tires. I could probably have made a good buy myself on a Farmall 200 with fast hitch that ran well and needed only a little grill work to make a real straight tractor except I quit bidding at $1,200 to rush over to the trailer that was going up for bid. Turns out that the 200 went for $1,250. Sometimes when they have 2 or more auctioneers going at the same time, you have to pick your priorities. Other things that we didnt bother to bid on seemed to go way too high in opur opinion. I find that to be normal for most auctions. I haven't really solved the spindle issue on the "A" yet, as I havent put much time into the tractor this spring since farm work has picked up. In addition to helping John, which has been mostly helping get planters and other equipment ready, since he no-tills everything, I have been driving fertilizer trucks for Royster Clark which is 1/2 mile from my house. That keeps me pretty busy right now, and will for another 4 to 6 weeks. I guess I owe you an E.Mail to catch you up on things, as far as the restoration is concerned.

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Hugh MacKay

04-30-2004 16:26:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Paul in Mich, 04-30-2004 05:41:56  
Paul: Only way to treat an auction, I never go looking for anything in particular. I always find if I have some item in mind it will undoubtedly sell for way too much money. At 62, I don't buy a whole lot anymore. I see like you bargains galore out there. I really don't want to acumulate a whole lot of iron. My garden is really my big hobby and if it takes 3 - 20 hp tractors to do that, so be it.

A friend of mine now in his late 70s used to fill his pickup and 20' trailer at every auction. He had the better part of 5 acres filled with projects. Problem was his health deteriorated to point whereby his projects never got done. Subdivisions grew up on both sides of him. Then one day he got a visit from the Municipal unsightly premices officer, his treasures had to go. His 6 children came one weekend and moved it all to a son's gravel pit. There it still sits. He has since become a widower and now lives with one of his sons and family. Tells me he has a new set of rules to live by. He can still go to auctions, but it's hand tools and 1/16 farm toys only. It will happen to us all, but my gosh aren't we having fun in the meantime..

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CNKS

04-29-2004 12:54:07




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
I would only buy a tractor sight unseen if I knew it needed repairs, and I was looking for a new project -- I have an idea what the price should be and will also know if it is over priced. I stay away from "restored", "mint", "premium", etc because of what your friend found out. As they say there is a sucker born every minute. Never buy an expensive anything sight unseen. Someone who is not familiar with farm machinery had better examine it very closely, preferably with a knowledgeable person to help.

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jed

04-29-2004 11:16:14




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
Hey guys, The best way to stop the crap is to let everyone know about it. If you feel you were ripped off, share it and let others know about it. Be realistic though because I know some people who are happy buying expensive junk. Go to any auction and they are there. I don't understand how you can be ripped off though. Don't you always have a right of refusal.



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Allan

04-29-2004 09:55:34




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 Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 09:28:33  
I disagree.

If there is a snake oil peddler operating out there, I think others should be made aware of who they are.

These types of sellers deserve nothing less.

Allan



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Al

04-29-2004 10:07:45




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 Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Allan, 04-29-2004 09:55:34  
Allan
I tend to feel the same way but there's always the possibility of folks spreading false messages just to " get even". I wish we had a place on this form to keep records on bad and good transactions. I'm going to try to keep an eye on the Ads and anytime I see this guy trying to peddle something I will at least raise the " buyer beware " flag. The problem with this guy is that he's out in the middle of nowhere and the tendency will be to buy on his word versus inspecting first.

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Jesse

04-29-2004 10:30:57




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 Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 10:07:45  
BE CAREFUL about posting names as, I am sure, any lawyer will tell you, you can be in for a ton of hassles! At the end of the day, a buyer needs to take the time to check out a tractor IN PERSON and do his homework to KNOW what it is he is buying.



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Chris Brown

05-01-2004 08:12:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Jesse, 04-29-2004 10:30:57  
If you can prove that the seller falsely represented an item and you can prove it. It is not slander and you are not guilty of liable. That is why it is important to get it all in writing or to save all emails and pictures. If you go on to give out his name and a story about what he did to you,be truthful. If he decided to sue you for this,it would be the best thing for you because you saved all correspondance and a history of what happened. It is called a counter suit and you know he will show up.

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Honesty !!!!!!

04-29-2004 11:03:04




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Jesse, 04-29-2004 10:30:57  
All CROOKS should have their name and address posted on every site. This is the only way you will stop it, or visit him at midnite. Your name could be Mr. X



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Al

04-29-2004 10:53:54




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Jesse, 04-29-2004 10:30:57  
Jesse
I agree ;however, in this case if legal action were to be taken the Seller would be the one in trouble. All of his statements are on fill via email responses to direct questions. Anyone reading the emails and inspecting the tractor would know where the fault lies. How about " no non-factory welds" only to discover a 10 inch long weld on the block. This is only one of many misrepresentations.

I'm saying exactly what you are saying--inspect before sending money at least in this case. I have purchased tractors from folks who's word is their bond and I would have no hesitation in buying anything from them without a personal inspection. Know your Seller or inspect yourself.

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Novel Idea Guy

04-29-2004 13:07:00




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 10:53:54  
Those emails will hold about as much water in a court of law as a shot-up bucket. Emails, being nothing more than simple electronic text, can be easily falsified and cannot be verified beyond reasonable doubt.

You start spreading this guy's name around, and he can haul your butt into court. He'll win too, because the burden of proof is on you since you made the accusations.



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Al

04-29-2004 13:27:43




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Novel Idea Guy, 04-29-2004 13:07:00  
Well we would certainly disagree on that ( check out the Ebay feedback system ) but thats not what this is about. We have already made our point and that is simply a reminder to folks to watch out. My experience is that the vast majority of folks in the old car/truck/tractor hobby are honest almost to a fault. Its easy to become complacent as we did. I would just hate to see someone else make the same mistake. I do care about others on this forum. Thanks for your thoughts.

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Paul in Mich

04-30-2004 06:06:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 13:27:43  
This response it for Harley, but I posted it ahead of his post because somehow in reading past posts Harley always seems to have the last word. Far be it from me to break with tradition. Harley, in a sense, I agree with you, because I have bought items on E.Bay, and with their feedback system, a lot of scheisters are weeded out. Anyone who bids on items from sellers who have a lot of negative feedback have only themselves to blame if they get ripped off. I bought my 1940 Farmall "A" from an E.Bay seller, but checked out the feedback first and found the seller to be very reputable. I also did not pay for the tractor in full until I picked it up. It turned out to be everything the seller represented it to be....not perfect, but in good shape and certainly very restorable. Perhaps feedback is an area that Kim & Co. on this site could explore, as it would provide an opportunity both for positive feedback as well as negative, and responses to either positive or negative. I have in the past E.Mailed more than one seller who has posted a tractor on this site and informed him that either the tractor isnt the model he is advertising or if he calls it restored, or excellent, and it is neither, or otherwise blatently misrepresented, and give him an opportunity to correct the ad. Twice it has worked, as corrections in the ads ensued. I didn't have to blab it in the public forum, although I would have at least made people aware of any discrepency, had the seller ignored the suggestion and continued to knowingly misrepresent what he was selling. Any buying or selling transaction requires a certain degree of faith between buyer and seller, but caution is not a dirty word. We can always exercise caution, whether selling or buying.

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harley1983

04-29-2004 22:19:22




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Dishonest Seller in reply to Al, 04-29-2004 13:27:43  
Sometimes yes, sometimes no. I have been buying and selling tractors now on ebay for about two years, and there is no way I have the time to travel a thousand miles to look at a 1500.00 tractor to see if I might want to bid on it or not. Hugh has his way, it works for him,and that is just great for him. I on the other hand have had good luck trusting the word of me ebay partners. On the other hand, the only time I got took was on this site, and I have not one small qualm about telling you his name. He comes up before the Washington County, Kansas court May 7, and there are 18 of us victims that he is going to have to start paying restitution to, and he is Greg Jackson, Hanover, Kansas, and he is a liar and a thief, and he can't sue the Pope for libel, because it has been proven in a court of law, and all he is waiting for now is sentencing. So don't have anything to do with this jerk. Just helping the next guy. But I'll still buy tractors without inspecting them, and maybe some will sat I am naive or worse, but one must at least make the effort to believe in his fellow man. Good luck to all out there and keep yer stick on the ice and remember, I'm pulling for you cause we're all in this together, Harley

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