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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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hydraulic oil for H ?

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riverbend

02-03-2004 08:25:10




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The H does not have a filter in it's hydraulic system. Regardless of what the manual says, that would seem to indicate that a non-detergent oil should be used. More recent tractors do have hydraulic oil filters. Is the current hydraulic oil considered a detergent oil ?




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Dave in CT

02-03-2004 15:46:12




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 Re: hydraulic oil for H ? in reply to riverbend, 02-03-2004 08:25:10  
All the IH and I&T literature I've seen on Hs say straight 30W non-detergent oil in the hydraulics. I don't know about the detergent status of Hy/Trans oil but the system is designed for 30W and it must be non-detergent as the detergent oil will foam and give you no performance. There have been some other postings discussing using hy/trans in colder weather. I've used 30W in temps down to 0F with only a little initial slugishness - otherwise, no problem. Since contaminants contribute to the death of any hydraulic system, I'd like to find a way to filter the lift-all oil on my H. I imagine that would require some live or quasi-live conversion setup in order to get all the oil to flow through it.

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Buttin in where I shouldn

02-04-2004 09:28:42




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 Re: Re: hydraulic oil for H ? in reply to Dave in CT, 02-03-2004 15:46:12  
Hy-trans is about 1/2 the viscosity rating of 30W at room temp. It is a combination transmission and hydraulic fluid. The good thing is that it's all weather; much better than 30W when cold and the bad thing is that wear on your gears is said (by whom?)to be slightly higher than the 80-90 Mineral Oils due to lower surface tension (when the gears are under heavy pressure it can squirt out more easily than the heavy oil will). As far as detergent or not, detergents (as I know them)were made to suspend products of combustion in internal combustion engines, which are light, whereas your hydraulic system probably is mostly sand and dirt (heavy....won't stay in suspension). Not sure it matters (detergent or non-detergent)..... ....except straight non-detergent 30W is all oil which is a lubricant; detergents are not and compete with your lubricant for space in the tight spots.

Course the question we all have to ask ourselves is how much oil do you need between 2 gears under pressure to protect them? I'd answer that two ways: (1), one molecule of oil thickness would keep metal from touching metal, but if you were squeezing it that hard (2), it is going to get hot so it would need a cooler. Additionally the thinner oil doesn't dampen machinery vibration and noises so thin oil will be noisier.

I have Fords, JD's and have had Massey's built in the early '60's and earlier IH. There was a mix of where what oil was used (tranny/hydraulics/differential).

The JD used the HY/Tran type fluid in everything but there were 2 important additions: A massive fluid cooling radiator in front of the engine radiator and a huge externally removable filter for the fluid. Fords and Masseys didn't have an external cooler and some had filters and some didn't. Looks like you can make your own decisions here.

The reason for the response to your Post is this.

Hydraulic pressure, as you know, is 1200 to 2500 psig. I don't think you want that kind of pressure on any filtering system. Manufacturers either use a low pressure (150# with a big thick steel cover over the filter) circulation system for the fluid (JD) or put the filter in the low pressure side of the system (drain or intake). You could HAVE YOURSELF A BOMB if you put the filter you're talking about in the high pressure line (especially if it is a spin on like most are these days).

Sorry for butting in.

Mark

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Thanks for buttin in

02-04-2004 14:30:59




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 Re: Re: Re: hydraulic oil for H ? in reply to Buttin in where I shouldn, 02-04-2004 09:28:42  
Well, I was just passing on what the manufacturer's specs were. Thanks for the lesson. You say the Hy/Tran is much better when cold. I believe it but, how cold? Anything below 32F? When I haven't experienced too much slowness at 0F does that mean 'not too much difference in performance but you're wearing your pump out'? I wasn't thinking of putting the filter on the high-pressure part of the system (the pressure in a lift-all pump on an H is usually 800 psi, by the way) but since the hydraulics aren't live - pumps out and drains back in the same lines - I was thinking a modification was needed in order to get _all_ the oil to pass (low pressure) through the filter. Also, I have seen other posts that attest to the oil foaming if one uses the detergent type. Thanks for the info and your concern.

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Buttin in.....Mark

02-04-2004 17:22:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: hydraulic oil for H ? in reply to Thanks for buttin in, 02-04-2004 14:30:59  
Sir,
How cold I can't answer as I don't know what you do when 15W oil turns to grease....(better find a hole in the ground). I know JD runs it and Deeres are everywhere. With that said, I do know that the lower the viscosity ( 15w vs 90w), the flatter the "trajectory" and when the temp turns for the worse, the less variation you have on "thickness" and the less impact you have on your equip. Thin oils don't get thick real fast like thick oils do.

Again, unless you are rich, and I am not, our equipment is roughly '60's vintage and fluids now vs then are day and night. We can get super performance over extremes of temp with light weight fluids that are available to us today.

If you have clean lube in your system, I doubt you will wear a pump out. Remember, it only takes one oil molecule to keep metal off metal. What will happen is that the light fluids in the summer will thin out and will find weak points in your hydraulic system, squirt out and cause loss of lift. So, I think you primary concern is more of ability to lift, rather than damaging equipment.

Can't answer your concern about foaming. My association with foaming has been with filling a reservoir too full and the resultant beating, like a crankshaft hammering an oil reservoir (crankcase) when the oil is up too high. In the auto industry they caution you on ATF that if it gets too full and foams it doesn't work. I have seen bubbles on the TX dipstick on my trucks on a hard trip but never lost a tranny because of it. Pulled lots of trailers.

At 62, with a lifetime of loving and lovin engines, I find that clean oil and the right amount (dipstick at the top) will cleanse a lot of sins. And if it's too thick to run cold, get something that will flow.

If that doesn't help come back and we'll go again.

I just didn't want you to blow a hole in your leg with a filter on the high side.

Best,

Mark

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