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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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So how safe are we?

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Dave H (MI)

12-30-2003 18:44:00




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I was reading tractorhead's tragic post about his friend Bob. Got me to thinking about when I bought my MTA and all the horror stories everybody told me and how I barely touched the thing for the first year I owned it. I use it now for cutting and square baling and pulling the wagons full of hay back and forth. I never use it on steep hills or to pull stumps or stuck cars, etc. It has never had the front wheels come off the ground. All those comments about tractors going over "in a wink" are pretty scary.
Can this happen in low gear? How does something like that happen? I've had a utility with a loader for 15 years and it is pretty tippy but this narrow front farmall feels real solid to me.
Any tips on this subject?

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scotc

12-31-2003 16:30:59




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
the real factor isn't so much where we hook, but what happens under load when hooked there. Pulling, for example a log, from the 3pt with the lift arms up, transfers weight onto the rear wheels until its upside down. pulling with the arms fully down, the weight won't transfer much. Pulling from the drawbar, some weight will transfer providing more traction. What happens when the log gets hooked, the tractor tries to lift its front wheels, but once the angle of your chain or rope is less than that of your drawbar(from horizontal), the weight actually is transferred off the rear wheels, which, unless you have quite the tractor, will let it spin out instead of going over. Hooking at the end of the swinging drawbar enhances this effect because hooking closer to the axle lessens this process. Hooking to the 3 pt hitch can be safe, DEPENDING ON THE HEIGHT OF THE HITCH WHILE PULLING.

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Kelly C

12-31-2003 07:56:45




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
every one had good coments.
If you look at say a Farmall H. See where the drawbar attaches to the tractor. The pulling point for the bar is in front of the rear wheels.
Pulling from this draw bar it would be very very hard to flip it over. The harder you pull the more it pulls the front down. The same cant be said if you hook to the draw bar section that attaches to the axles or hooking any where else on the tractor.
I had hooked to the draw bar and also wrapped the chain around the draw bar section that connects to the axles and was told this was incorrect.
If you hook a chain to pull a stump or some thing always hook just to the draw bar.
I wont pull a stump with a 3 pt or fast hitch tractor. I cant see the pivot point on those. Fast hitch may be ok, but I like the plain draw bar hook in front of the rear wheels.

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KURT

12-31-2003 02:56:58




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
I heard a pastor one time say "we are only one heartbeat away from the kingdom of God" I dont want to go by having a tractor come over on me. My 44H would lift the front tires off the ground, Just a little in first gear if I let the clutch out quickly, not pulling anything. If I still had the H I would have eventually made a set of steel channel that would have been welded to the drawbar and extended behind the tractor by a few feet to prevent flipping it over. Be safe...

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Hugh MacKay

12-31-2003 02:52:51




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
Dave: We are just as safe as the guy behind the wheel. Tractor and farm equipment safety is little more than a good dose of junior high physics. There are two problems areas society seem to have with this. Number one is the guy with no common sence. The other is guys reaching their senior years and not realizing their reflexes have slowed. Some people learn this, others don't.



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moonlite

12-31-2003 02:44:58




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
The older Farmalls were longer than the utility model tractors ane were less likely to lift the front end in a hard pull. Also the fixed heith of the drawbar was an advantage. I have 2 urility tractors. a 574 IHC and a 165 MF. The only safety advantage of the utilities is the placement of the seat which allows the operator to mount from the side rather than the back.



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RandyN in MO

12-30-2003 19:00:56




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 Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Dave H (MI), 12-30-2003 18:44:00  
Hi Dave

A very common reason for the flip over is the load pulling above the center of gravity. The first Fordson tractors were known for flip-over because the "drawbar" was mounted on the back of the differential. This naturally put the "point of pull" above the center of gravity. This way, if the load got hung up, like a plow getting caught on a root or rock, or when trying to pull something like a stump, that first gear is low enough to provide the torque to make that tractor swing up and over with the axis being the rear axle.

The three-point hitch can provide the same set up. That is why one should NEVER pull anything from that third hitch point...it is way above the center of gravity. It IS why you should always pull from the drawbar. Also, when pulling from the three-point hitch itself, the center of gravity can get too high if the hitch is operated in a high position or if the geometry of the three-point hitch pulls above the center of gravity.

I have a Farmall 300 with three point and a drawbar. It is a wonderful, stable tractor. The only thing the three point gets used for is using equipment intended for the three point. When I "pull", I pull with the drawbar.

In short, if it doesn't look safe, then it probably isn't.

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Robert

12-30-2003 20:10:10




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 Re: Re: So how safe are we? in reply to RandyN in MO, 12-30-2003 19:00:56  
Actually, Randy, while this concept seems very simple, it is even simpler than that.

While the phrase 'Center of Gravity' is probably well understood, it is not the correct phrase here. The center of gravity of the tractor is not an issue.

If you imagine a tractor with a variable hitch height, imagine a tractor with a hitch height (pick a number, say 20 feet) that high in the air.

Wouldn`t take much pull toward the rear to lift the front of the tractor off the ground.

Start lowering the hitch height, and the result is that more pull would be needed to lift the front end. The effect continues until the hitch point reaches the ground.

Lowering the hitch height below the rear axle, there is nothing magical that happens.

Lowering the hitch height to ground level is the ultimate loss of lifting effect. Raising the hitch height anything above ground level causes a decrease in weight on the front wheels as pulling force is applied.

If you could actually lower the hitch point below the surface of the ground, pulling force would actually put more weight on the front wheels, transferring weight from the rear wheels.

It's just that lowering the hitch height as much as possible will usually cause the tractor to lose traction before enough weight is taken off the front wheels to cause them to lift off the ground.

I had a gooseneck grain trailer that one time I had 300 bushell of corn on and attempted to pull it (Slightly) uphill in soft ground behind a Deere 4230. The hitch was a little higher than when the trailer was hitched to the fifth wheel in the pickup. I had ten suitcase weights on the front of the 4230 and could not pull the trailer. All the pull and weight of the trailer on the hitch was above the level of the 3 point arms in the raised position.

Any pulling force I applied would lift the front of the tractor before the trailer moved.

Factory made hitch for the trailer and very dangerous. Good only for moving the trailer when empty.

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Paul in Mich

12-31-2003 07:16:05




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 Re: Re: Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Robert, 12-30-2003 20:10:10  
Even with the drawbars set below the center of gravity, it is best to always hook up to the swinging drawbar. The swinging drawbar (at least on the older farmalls) is attached to a point ahead of the axle which when under load helps pull the front of the tractor down without losing rear traction. I believe that operator awareness is the greatest deterant to tractor mishaps. Think before doing something offbeat or erratic, which ends up being foolish or dangerous.

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Dave H (MI)

12-31-2003 07:35:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Paul in Mich, 12-31-2003 07:16:05  
A lot of what I am hearing is what I learned over the past 15 years driving my light utility. It can be a terror loaded with sand on the front end, but that is a different topic. When hooked up to a chain and dragging something around (OK, so I have been known to skid windfalls off the road to home for firewood) I have always found that the lower the chain hookup, the stabler the tractor. I like the big Farmall because the swinging drawbar attaches half-way up the length of the tractor. It is exceedingly solid. Even so, I still use what I learned on the utility and keep my left foot poised to jam the clutch down.
I have been fortunate in having had a lot of good older guys to help me. When I bought the utility, a neighbor who had a slightly larger one worked with me for hours and vice versa and gave me a lot of tips. And I'll never forget the day I drove six hours to inspect the MTA. Guy who sold it to me must have been pushing 80 years old. He went over every inch of that tractor with me before he let me climb aboard. Then he stood on the back end for almost two hours giving me driving lessons and operating tips. It was quite a time. Point is, you can't beat that type of education. I have never had even a minor incident with a tractor and probably owe a lot of my luck to those two guys and others like them who sold me implements. I will pass on what I have learned when I someday have to hand my tractors over to the next guy. We all should.
Safe and happy New Year guys!

DMH

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lee

12-30-2003 21:59:27




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 Re: Re: Re: So how safe are we? in reply to Robert, 12-30-2003 20:10:10  
I would look at it more like this. Any time a tractor is in forward motion the effect of the torque applied to the drive axles is to try to lift the front end. This is the case with no load applied to the rear of the tractor. A strong tractor may lift the front end slightly by simply puching the throttle hard in a low gear. If you attach a load to the rear of the tractor, parallel to the ground and at the exact height of the rear axles the torque on the drive axles is still the only reaction tending to lift the front end. If you attach above the rear axles the effect is that the front will come up more readily. If you hook up below center of the rear axles the effect is to help hold the front down. But this won't ensure that you will not ratchet over backwards. If the rear tires hook up sufficiently and the tractor has enough power, the tractor is coming over, and rather quickly if she's quick to get on the governor. The deal with that gooseneck trailer is the heavy tongue weight applied to the draw bar. All that weight on the drawbar behind the rear axle centerline, tends to lift the front end. On a correct 3 point hook-up with bottom plows, the top link is in compression, which asssists in holding the front of the tractor down. The lower links are generally down low below the axles. That's one reason why the three point was such a great invention for pulling plows. Tractors are not really meant for pulling large stumps or other fixed items.

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