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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Well I better do the TA.

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Kelly C

12-10-2003 19:13:26




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I was out in the shop tonight getting ready to put my 400 back together after the clutch/ rear main seal job.
I figured I had better do the TA wile I have it this far apart.
I am going to try to do this on the cheap side. I.E. replace the ramp and rollers. ( I hope thats all it needs) It is slipping on the low side.
I am sure I will know more when I get it out.
If some thing else is worn I suppose a rebuild one from steelwheel ranch will do.
If some one who has done this can supply me with a list of what I need. Gaskets ect.
What about the bearings?
I am still concerned about that clunking sound that I hear wile moving. I would hate to put in a rebuilt TA and still have some thing else wrong in there when I am done.
WHAAAA!!!!! my Tractor budget is all shot to heck!!!

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rebuilder

12-11-2003 11:31:27




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 Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 19:13:26  
Kelly: If you are planning on rebuilding you T.A. I will list what I generally see wrong in most T.A.' I rebuild.
-check all gear teeth on planetaries as well as input&output shafts for flaking. If they are flaking there is not much life left in the gears.

-checkneedle bearing surfaces;2 on output shaft and all three shafts in planetaries. I see ANY amount of flaking I replace.

-Install NEW needles in planetaries!

-I check needle bearings in carrier and primary(input) shaft for play.If I can stick an o-ring pick point well inbetween neeldles, they are worn and need to be replaced.

-The thin bearing which fits inside the ramp is fragile. I have broken many just taking them off and I have had one instance where a T.A. I rebuilt had that brearing fly apart after being installed. Use care removing and installing and check outer race for fine cracks running around race.

-As mention in previous posts the ramp should be replaced. If you use your tractor hard or often you would be better to install the H.D. ramp(sprague). An extra $100 I know, but money well spent.

-as for the clunking noise I doubt very much it is in the T.A. Most T.A.'s I rebuild, if one tooth goes out they all go out together since they are timed and macthed. My Super M has had the inner axle bearings go out several times producing a similar clunking noise. To check, take out the pto, remove bull gear(by sliding axle out of axle housing. You can see if bearing is out and replace. Note: reinstalling bull gear by yourself(aligning the splines) can take some time as well as just the right swear words, but when spoken in just the right tone can do wonders.
Post back with any other rebuiling questions.

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paul

12-11-2003 17:50:44




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 Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to rebuilder, 12-11-2003 11:31:27  
if the axle beaings are the cause of the noise would it not make noise enguaged or disenguaged?? im going to split my super mta this weekend due to gear noise in low only. im thinking broken teeth on sun gear?? paul



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rebuilder

12-11-2003 18:57:56




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 Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to paul, 12-11-2003 17:50:44  
Paul: To my understanding of Kelly's post he hears the noise with or with out the T.A. So problem should be elsewhere. If in your case the noise is only when T.A. is engaged then I would suspect yes there probably is gear damage or needle bearing inside primary(input) shaft is out. Also I have seen several T.A.'s come in to be rebuilt because oil level was not keep at proper levels. The needles in the planetaries seized! Those are fun projects. If you suspect T.A. gears are problem, BEFORE you split tractor, take off top cover of bell housing and you will be able to look directly at the gears, and T.A. clutch pack.

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Kelly C

12-11-2003 15:32:22




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 Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to rebuilder, 12-11-2003 11:31:27  
Post back with any other rebuiling questions

You bet I will.
I do have a question about checking the inner axle bearing.
Take out the PTO? I dont understand this part yet.
Is that so I can see it?


remove bull gear(by sliding axle out of axle housing. I assume this is the axle that runs the brake drums?

More to come.
I think I may wait on the TA untill I find out about these bearings and ring gear/ bull gears.
If the TA is not causing the klunking There is no need for me to mess with it now. Direct drive is fine for haying. ( primary use for this 400)

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rebuilder

12-11-2003 19:11:53




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 Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-11-2003 15:32:22  
Kelly: Sorry if I was not clear. Removal of pto allows you to look into rear case but bull gear hides bearing. Pull axle your wheel rides on approx. 3-5" to disengauge bull gear. With bull gear loose you will only be able to slide to the side at an angle due to the top of bull gear still meshed loosely with pinion shaft(this runs the brake drums)and pinion cage. This can be a tight fit but you should be able to see if bearing is out. Also taking the pto out gives you a look at the ring gear on the differential, as well as the most telltale sign; finding ball bearings laying in the bottom of tranny(or gear teeth as the case may be).

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Kelly C

12-11-2003 19:28:02




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to rebuilder, 12-11-2003 19:11:53  
Cool beans.
Sounds like a good thing to look at this weekend.
Going to go buy me some clean 5 gal buckets 1st. I've got $70 worth of new hytran in there.



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Dan

12-10-2003 21:15:01




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 Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 19:13:26  
I got a rebuilt ramp and roller setup from Steel wheel to fix my SMTA. Believe they had a kit with seals and gaskets you need also. I got gaskets from IH along with some seals and others from NAPA. You could get a changeover Sprague type TA setup from Steel Wheel for a bit more than the ramp and roller setup but you had to get a different carrier also. While in there you will want to check ta clutch disc and plate. Not sure what would clunk in there though. Think the rebuilt ramp and roller setup was only about $100, gaskets and seals 60 something. I think the clutch disc also runs about 100 though. If you get in there and there are problems in sun gears or carrier you might be better off with a rebuilt unit.

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fixerupper

12-10-2003 20:49:54




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 Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 19:13:26  
Is the sound rhythmic or sporadic? If it is rhythmic it could be a bull gear with a chipped or missing tooth.



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Kelly C

12-10-2003 20:56:53




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 Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to fixerupper, 12-10-2003 20:49:54  
I would say rhythmic.
I guess I will know after the TA. If its still making the noise.



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John A.

12-10-2003 20:02:01




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 Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 19:13:26  
Kelly, When does this clunk sound happen? On my ol 966, (I know it isn't a 400) In high idle , like plowing, need to stop, step down on the clutch, but before I could throttle down. There was a SLAP or a Clunk sound from down deep in the tranny. My TA was going out! My Question is how and when does it occur. Also after my tractor got really warmed up on a 100 degree day the low side would go to slipping. I will bet it is probably the TA on yours Abilene Machine has good ones, pretty good warrenty too. Last time I checked. My $.02
Hope this helps
John A.

PS..Better now!, while it is split and not later.

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Chad

12-11-2003 07:24:53




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 Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to John A., 12-10-2003 20:02:01  
John, I have something very similar happening to our 1086 that you just described on your 966. My question is whether this clunk happens in both Hi and Lo TA positions. We never use Lo so I didn't know if the TA was the cause of the noise in the 1086 since the TA isn't engaged. However, this clunk or slap occurs just as you described. If the tractor is coasting and I depress the clutch, the sound doesn't occur. However, if it is under load and it is clutched, the nasty clunk is heard along with a corresponding jerk in the driveline.

If it it the TA, does it require a complete replacement or can it be fixed?

Thanks,
Chad

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John A.

12-12-2003 17:58:45




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 Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Chad, 12-11-2003 07:24:53  
Chad, I don't know if it can be fixed or not. I had a rebuilt put in, And it hasn't happened since.
I am sure the TA was going out. In 4- lo- Direct on very hot days the TA would slip, while pulling a 13 shank chiesel plow. In 3rd it was fine and it didn't slip. I couldn't tell any drive line jerk on mine.
None-the-less I would replace, before I would repair. To get a warrenty if for no other reason.
Hope this helps.
John A.

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John A.

12-10-2003 19:58:56




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 Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 19:13:26  
Kelly, When does this clunk sound happen? On my ol 966, (I know it isn't a 400) In high idle , like plowing, need to stop, step down on the clutch, but before I could throttle down. There was a SLAP or a Clunk sound from down deep in the tranny. My TA was going out! My Question is how and when does it occur. Also after my tractor got really warmed up on a 100 degree day the low side would go to slipping. I will bet it is probably the TA on yours Abilene Machine has good ones, pretty good warrenty too. Last time I checked. My $.02
Hope this helps
John A.

PS..Better now!, while it is split and not later.

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Kelly C

12-10-2003 20:31:09




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 Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to John A., 12-10-2003 19:58:56  
Its a real light thunking sound.
You hear it when moving. Idling is quite. Pto running is quiet.
Light load sound is light. Pulling a heavier load it got louder.
Going down hill raking it whapped real loud. When you hear it you look down by your feet.



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Wayne

12-10-2003 22:09:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 20:31:09  
I had something very similar and it was a bearing out on the axle. The inside one next to the ring gear. It will crack the housing if that is what it is, because the big ring gear is going to enentually wear through the bottom.



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Kelly C

12-11-2003 04:22:03




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Wayne, 12-10-2003 22:09:42  
Whew!! Looks like my web site is going to have all kinds of self help ideas before the end of winter.
I would assume to check the ring gear I need to remove the deck?
How were you able to tell that the bearing was bad?
I can see why the ring gear would make those sounds. I was having a hard time looking at a picture of the TA and seeing where that sound would come from.



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docmo

12-10-2003 21:02:30




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 Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to Kelly C, 12-10-2003 20:31:09  
could be your ring gear or pinon gear has some teeth chipped and broken



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ken

12-11-2003 06:11:01




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Well I better do the TA. in reply to docmo, 12-10-2003 21:02:30  
my 460 utility has a clunk ,clunk,clunk to in when moving and it too sounds like right under the shifter area.and looking thru the fill plug hole when i was changing fliud i just for some dumb reason got a flashlite out and was looking in the hole and i see on a gear 1 tooth missing.don't know what gear but assume 1st as it makes the noise the others are pretty much quiet.does this pose much of a problem,i don't use 1st that often 2nd and 3rd are my normal gears.

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