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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Reproduction Parts

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Slowpoke

10-12-2003 00:11:32




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Does anyone know if a license from Case/IH (or whoever owns IH/Farmall) is nesessary to reproduce older body parts? If so where would one start?
I have no idea who to contact. Does anyone have experience with this?
Any help appreciated.




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justin

10-12-2003 09:04:39




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 Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to Slowpoke, 10-12-2003 00:11:32  
To get the answer, you probably need to contact their IP attys. If I remember right, the cost is generally about $2500/yr, and 10-15% of your sales. This is only for items that have the IH on them, and you must register each item with Case IH. As far as I am concerned this shows that case is highly protective of the IH logo, as they know what kind of sales the licensed products will achieve.



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Steve - IN

10-12-2003 08:11:19




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 Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to Slowpoke, 10-12-2003 00:11:32  
Slowpoke,

Interesting question. Two ways to approach it: Ask or just go do it.

If you ask, the answer will most certainly be "yes", they'll be happy to take 2 to 5 per cent of your sales. (if you get a "no, not needed", check that the temperature in he|| isn't 32 degrees and falling). If the part contains the words Farmall, McCormick, McCormick-Deering, IH, etc. you can go to www.uspto.gov (the Trademark Office) and type in the word and find the owner of the mark. Example: I just did search the word FARMALL and found that for toy tractors mark is owned by Case Corp in Racine Wis, and if the goods are real tractors, the owner is CNH in Amsterdam, Holland. If it's Farmall Cub, the mark is dead and has no protection - no owner.

Main question is - does your part have any of those trademarks stamped on it? If it does, it's subject to trademark law, as those trademarks can live, be in force, and be enforceable, forever. If it does not have those words stamped on or integral to the part, odds are the best it could be is a design patent (the look or appearance of the thing, like the grille on a Farmall with the ribs, and so on). Patents only last 17 years, so odds are it's most certainly expired -- meaning you have no worries, and don't need a license.

All that said, here's my experience and guesses on the subject. Farmall, McCormick, etc. isn't well enforced, but John Deere surely is. Go to a tractor show and look at the repros. You'll see licensed product stickers or notices all over the JD stuff - but I don't remember ever seeing any license notice info on the decals and front badges reading Farmall or IH that you find for sale, and stuff I've bought for my H. Yet, I bought two repro side screens for my JD 1020, made in Turkey, and they have no license notice. Makes sense - a sheet metal part that doesn't have the trademark on it, and any design patent is long since dead. The fly in the ointment for the Farmall name is that Case/IH is going to begin selling Farmall tractors again, and Landini is selling McCormick tractors made in Doncaster now. Those trademarks should be getting more enforcement, as there is a legal principle of abandoment of a trademark. Example: a court ruled that Brooklyn Dodgers is an abandoned mark, as the Dodgers moved to L.A., and stopped using and enforcing the Brooklyn mark. So you can make all the Brooklyn Dodgers hats and shirts you want, and never have pay a license fee. Meaning if they're going to use the mark and expect protection, they'd better enforce it or lose it.

In short strokes, if I were going to make repros of the front grille on an H, M, C, etc., I'd just go do it. If I were going to make the badge reading Farmall or IH that goes on the front grille of the H, M, C, SH, SM, SC, etc. -- I'd surely talk to somebody about getting a license to use the mark. As to who to talk to -- I would have guessed Navistar, hdq. in Chicago, as they got stuck with the gas tank cap deal, but the government says that CNH - CNH Global N.V. CORPORATION NETHERLANDS World Trade Center Amsterdam Shiphol Boulevard 2171118 BH Shiphol Airport Netherlands Attorney of Record Robert W. Sacoff, Esq. is the owner.

N.B.: I've never been admitted to the patent bar, so all this is semi-informed conjecture; not legal advice. You might spend 200 to 500 bucks to talk to a patent lawyer. He might tell you many of the same things I have -- and might conclude by saying it's ultimately your business decision. That is, even if they have no claim, it's still easy for them to file a meritless lawsuit and drown you in legal fees. If you're in China, Turkey, Mexico etc. that won't bother you; but if you're in the US of A, watch out.

Good luck with the project.

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Slowpoke

10-12-2003 11:58:20




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 Re: Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to Steve - IN, 10-12-2003 08:11:19  
Steve...Thanks for all the info and work you put into getting the answers. At this time I'm only interested in having some 240 side panels reproduced, which have been out of production for 45 years. I don't think they have any logo or name on them. I heard they are scarce as hen's teeth, and I need a set myself. I met a fellow who has a full set on an IH 240, and I mentioned to him about having some made. Since he only knew me a few hours, he wasn't too enthusiastic about my taking his panels for samples. I'll look further into it and see what the costs would be. Maybe it's too expensive to do anyway. But on the other hand people are selling A,B, and C hoods for $125, and how many of those are needed for the hobby? 200? 500? 1000? Steve, thanks again for your help.

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Steve - IN

10-12-2003 19:18:06




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 Re: Re: Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to Slowpoke, 10-12-2003 11:58:20  
Slowpoke,
You're very welcome. No problem looking up anything, most of it was from experience.

If the originals had a logo, leave it out on your repro part. Sounds like you get the idea to use sheet metal brakes, English wheels, or whatever to pound 'em out almost on an "as ordered" basis. Like you guess, the volume can't be that high, and any onshore tooling will run your breakeven point sky high. That number justin quotes of 10% or more if sales is fairly obscene -- has little to do with the value of the IH trademark -- and a lot more to do with chasing low cost repro parts for 50 year old tractors out of the market.

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Steve - IN

10-13-2003 05:56:46




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to justin, 10-13-2003 04:05:43  
justin,
I don't doubt your numbers. It's just irksome. No wonder repro production is driven offshore, where their patents and trademarks are generally unenforceable. That's my view as a consumer.

As a producer, I can understand their wanting to get all they can from their brand building efforts, just as any of us would do were we in the same position. I'm sure they'd rather have all of us buying their new machines, instead of trying to breathe life into stuff that rolled off their production lines 30, 40, 50 or more years ago.

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Slowpoke

10-13-2003 00:37:17




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Reproduction Parts in reply to Steve - IN, 10-12-2003 19:18:06  
A few weeks ago I met a fellow who has a large machine shop and has a couple of restored tractors, one green and one Farmall. He was checking the fit for SS tops for his garage cabinets. I asked about the procedure for making them on a box brake, and he said he just puts the specs in the computer and the brake automaticaly forms the bends. I wonder if it would be that easy to stamp out side panels. With my luck, it would take a $100,000 machine and a $10,000 die!!

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