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H Rebuild

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SCCA SOLO

07-24-2003 16:00:20




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I am rebuilding a 1943 Farmall H soon and I have a few questions. Does anyone know if the super h sleeves fit into an h without boring the block? As for compression, what is a safe level of compression to avoid detonation? I know the h is ~5.9:1 but that was because back in the day gasoline octane was extremely low and required lead to increase the octane and lubrication, (Phillips 66 name came from 66 octane, that is low!) but today we have easy access to 87-94 octane. Would 8.5:1 - 9.0:1 be ok for 87 as long as ign. timing is set properly? One last question, has anyone ever flow benched a stock h head and/or manifold? What is the bottleneck?
Don't mean to ask 100 questions, I just like to make engines the most efficient they can be. I really enjoy challenges like this.
Thanks

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CNKS

07-24-2003 18:18:02




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 Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 16:00:20  
I don't think Super H sleeves will fit, but there are rebuild kits with stepped head or fire crater pistons that will give the H about as much power as a Super H flat top piston engine. From your statement about volumetric efficiency, etc, you obviously know more about engines in general than I do. But, under load, I think you are going to get detonation with 87 octane at 9.0 to 1 compression. As you know some (most?) modern automobile engines have an automatic spark retard that allows them to have higher compression and still run on low octane gas. Of course the H does not have that and I don't think the magneto, or distributer, if your 43 has one, will allow enough timing retard to let it run at 9 to 1. Also IH made kerosene, distillate, and gasoline heads. The gas head, of course is highest in compression, but I think the kero and/or distillate were as low as 4 to 1. Post the part number of your head, and someone will look it up for you if you don't have a parts manual. Now, having said all that, someone that is into tractor pulling will probably shoot me down. So be it.

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SCCA SOLO

07-24-2003 19:56:29




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 Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to CNKS, 07-24-2003 18:18:02  
CKNS,
Thanks. Thats exactly what I was looking for. Do you know who makes a good reliable kit? Now that I know about the ign. I won't risk higher compression if it will definately lead to detonation.
Thanks again.



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CNKS

07-25-2003 20:15:58




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 Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 19:56:29  
Case-IH has them (you will pay a little more), also Bates Corp, OEM Tractor Parts, etc. I have heard good things about the brand Tisco -- don't know who sells it, there are numerous sources.



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LanceM

07-24-2003 16:39:16




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 Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 16:00:20  
Don't have any answers to your questions but I do have a question, In my limited experiance in head porting would the gain be worth the work, for an engine that runs at 2000 rpm? I always thought that porting made the biggest difference above 5K? OK two questions :) Not trying to be smart, just sounds like you may know more about the subject that I do!

Lance



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SCCA SOLO

07-24-2003 17:20:55




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 Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to LanceM, 07-24-2003 16:39:16  
Lance,
Good question.
I think it would depend on what the stock volumetric efficiency is. If it could be significantly increased you should see a hp increase. Say the stock VE is 65% (guess) and you were able to increase the VE to 75% through porting and assuming the intake and exhaust can keep up with the flow increase you potentially could see a gain of 0.52lbs/min of airflow (Calc. done using 152cid, 1650RPM, 80F, 29.92 in Hg atmospheric press, and 50% relative humidity.) Using the rule of thumb I found of for every 1lb of air yields 10 hp (assuming proper amount of fuel is added) thats a 5hp gain from a cheap mod. I don't know what fuel density that rule uses. The lower the fuel density the higher the energy density, sound right to anyone? I have no idea what the ports look like in the H, its entirely possible that a gain in VE of 10% through porting the head of an H is entirely unrealistic. VE varies with RPM, I believe thats why different cams are used for different applications; to shift the highest VE to the RPM you will be using most often. I basically wanted to know where the bottleneck is, maybe the head flows fine and attention needs to go to the carb or manifold, I don't know. I've seen on other posts that people have put a head from a 350 or something in an effort to increase flow. No Idea what RPM's they were targeting or Compression. I am new to tractor engines, but I know quite a bit about auto engines. Same rules should apply or at least I hope so. I am not trying to be smart either, just trying to learn the most I can.

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LanceM

07-24-2003 18:37:10




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 Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 17:20:55  
Thanks for your reply, I learned something!

Lance



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Steve - IN

07-24-2003 18:25:34




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 Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 17:20:55  
SCCA Solo,

The H doesn't corner very well -- what are you going to do with more high end horsepower?

Couple of things -- step back and look at the cast manifold on ONE side (not cross flow) of the engine and the little carb on the inlet. Anymore questions on where the bottle necks are? Seriously, think headwork - by itself -- will do you little good without a tubular manifold and a bigger, or multi throat carb? And to take advantage off all that, you'll need more lift and duration on a custom ground cam, maybe a crank triggered igntion that's stable at high RPM?, etc. etc.

Next question is why are you hot rodding it? The H engine is made to shine at high torque, low RPM situations -- and not high RPM horsepower. The whole engine and drive train is setup for torque, and not high end horsepower. I'd think you'll need to change a lot more things to take real advantage of more head flow.

Re compression ratio -- you might get nearly the results at half the effort by using Occam's Razor -- that is, use white gas, Coleman fuel, etc. with lower octane that's matched to the engine instead of changine the engine to mate with higher octane gas.

Sure, I understand where you're coming from -- 9 yrs Natl. License running FF, FC, FSV, FA and USAC mini-indy. I also have an H. It's designed for low end torque, not peak HP at 10,000 RPM. So for my money, you're better off rebuilding to a good stock setup with the H and getting your 3G turn jollies on something with a lower CG that was designed to rev high and run fast.

Steve

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SCCA SOLO

07-24-2003 19:49:33




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to Steve - IN, 07-24-2003 18:25:34  
Steve,
This will be the first F1 Farmall, lol. Just looking to match everything together. I am trying to validate if everything is complimenting one another at load RPM - 1650. I'm an ME student, I've been taught to optimize, now I want to apply it.
Steve, if you know any teams out your way looking for talent let me know!!
Thanks.



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Steve - IN

07-25-2003 14:14:42




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 19:49:33  
Solo,
Let me know when you get an electro/pneumatic valve train installed in your F1 Farmall and it turns 19K rpm. That would be something to see.

I thought they still made ME's take econ 101 and get cozy with the idea of rapidly diminishing marginal returns to the megabuck. That is to say, I don't know what you end up with unless you've found some way to make tractor pulling pay (remember the famous Briggs Cunningham quote: "The best way to make a small fortune in motorsports is to start with a large fortune.").

Actualy, from practical experience flow benching FF motors, that cast manifold is probably the first thing you'd want massage. Would be interesting to stick on tubular, short zoomie pipes for grins, giggles, and torque to get that Big Daddy Don Garlits look. Dr. Evil makes a good point about the valve size, though, so that might be the actual choke point. Wonder how far you can go before you hit waterjacket.

Jobs with a race team: Let's see, CART is looking at chapter 11 in a few months. IRL can barely get enough cars to fill the Indy grid. People I know around here doing that kind of work don't hold out much hope -- in fact, they're getting tired of the 80 hour work weeks. Maybe better to look in NC or AL, as formula good ol' boy seems to be a lot more prosperous.

Good luck with the H, and finding a way to subvert the Cunningham paradox.

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Dr.EVIL

07-25-2003 09:43:39




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to SCCA SOLO, 07-24-2003 19:49:33  
I have an IHC reprint of the C-152 engine service manual from back in the 1940's (I used to work for IHC @ the Farmall Plant from 1976 to 1981) They have HP & Torque dyno charts in there. The H engine makes around 240-250#/ft of torque at around 1000 to 1100 RPM. Well above a car engine's 1 #/ft per CID average. And that was with the poor low octane gas and required low compression. Steve's right, those engines are made to lug, and pretty darn good at it too. Cam timing is pretty docile. The intake ports in the head are siameased, and with the firing order, one cylinder pulls an intake charge then it's neighbor it shares the port with takes advantage of the velocity already in the manifold. The valves are kinda small for the bore diameter, and there's a HUGE combustion chamber with the valves at the very top, so about all You can do is plane a little off the deck, .030" to .050", put over-size pistons & sleeves with pop-up domes on the pistons (yes, I know they kill flame travel, but they're the only way to make compression), and run the engine a little faster than the 1650 they're rated at, I personally wouldn't exceed 2000 without special rods. Oh, Magniflux the rods & I'd use ARP rod bolts too, Those H's have been known to throw a rod every now & then. You get real serious, there are places that will grind You custom cams for pulling. Don't worry about rod ratio, Stock Your already at 1.88, Way under square engine with Really Long rods! BTW, Where You going to School? FWIW, My Son wants to put a Ford EEC-IV EFI set-up out of a Mustang on a Famrall M.

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SCCA SOLO

07-25-2003 11:54:26




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: H Rebuild in reply to Dr.EVIL, 07-25-2003 09:43:39  
I know Steve is right. I wasn't looking for RPM HP in the first place, like you said the rods can't take it. Torque is simple its Force times the perpendicular distance. I'm not going to stroke it, so I have to add more force to combustion, ie increasing volumetric efficiency and flow quality at rated RPM. Yeah, to the most perfect job I would have to model the whole intake system and do a computational fluid dynamics analysis on it, look at reynold's #'s, boundry layers, etc. I think if I clean up some casting defects and gasket match and a few other things, the cylinder will fill more at that RPM. I'm not hogging out the ports and/or bowls so velocity decrease will not be an issue. More air/fuel in the combustion chamber equals more torque right? If not, how can you make more torque with less air if the air/fuel mix is what is responsible for creating the force on the pistion driving it down? Correct me if I am wrong, I am asking. I don't get to learn much about engine stuff being a ME student, just doing stress analysis and the sort, I want to learn all that I can. Putting an EFI system off a V8 into an I4 sounds pretty neat, you are close in displacement to the 302, won't he have to add a ton of sensors like crank position, knock, intake temp, MAF, etc? Sounds like a cool project. Make sure to tune the intake runners to take 100% advantage of the EFI, with EFI you can make all kinds of silly bends you normally can't with a carbed engine. Send me some pics when its done.
Oh yeah I go to RIT. I put my website below, there are links to the school and other things in it.

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