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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Can Anyone Figure this Out?????????????????

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BIG JOHN

07-18-2003 14:33:25




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This will probably be long but I don't want to leave anything out if I can help it.

I have a sweet little 1947 "B" that is restored that I use in parades and shows etc. It is 6 volt, dist/coil.

Here is the problem: I drove it down to my cattle barns to show it off to a Beef Cattle Tour that was here last Saturday. When it was over and I was ready to bring it back it wouldn't start. I cranked the starter until I was sure it was getting hot and no go.

The next day after making sure everything was as it should be I once again cranked on it until I thought the starter might be getting hot. Still no go.

Started checking and found NO SPARK. I knew that the points and cond. were new so started checking elsewhere. I had juce to and thru the on/off switch and to the coil. The points were set right and still no spark.

I decided that possably the coil had died. Since I had cranked on the starter for some time I though I should probably put a charger on the battery for a while and then replace the coil. After the charger had been on for a while I was just about to start to replace the coil when I tried her one more time. She fired right up and has several times since, runs fine.

This same thing happened last fall when I went to move it from the old shop to my new shop. At that time I put in new points and cond. and charged the battery and she fired right up and ran good. At that time I was not sure how old the orginal points and cond. were so I changed them. The orginals looked to be in good shape but looks can be deceiving.

Both times the battery was spinning the starter more than enough to have started it before charging it.

I don't want this tractor to lay down on me when I am wanting to show it off or worse in a parade.

I am still thinking COIL. WHAT DO THE REST OF YOU THINK????? ????? ?????

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Jimmy King

07-19-2003 22:52:31




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
This is proably not the problem, but once years ago on the H it would do simlar to that finaly Dad called an old wrench spiner with a lot of service manuals packed between his ears. After a while he found problem said he had never seen it before the cam surface on the points was partly broke and was hinging so the points would open for a while then not for a while. O'h ya Hugh I had an Olds. once the ck engine light came on shortly after I bought it several shops later still on drove car 4 years was still on when I traded it off.

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BamaScot

07-19-2003 07:21:26




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
Check to see if the insulator for the passthru on the distributor is going bad. It's a long shot but could be shorting out when the dist gets hot from the engine block heat.



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Larry B.

07-19-2003 05:51:43




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
Changing it over to a 12 volt system will help a lot.



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Lone WOlf

07-18-2003 23:39:10




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
Check all the wiring paths with a continuity checker. Sounds like you are getting intermittent voltage restrictions. Wiring that looks good can have a problem within the insulation coating. Good looking wiring can go bad.Check for corrosion, broken or worn wiring and clean all connections. Just in case it is one of those freaky things check the battery for a low cell too.
LW



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scotc

07-21-2003 15:23:11




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 Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????????? in reply to Lone WOlf, 07-18-2003 23:39:10  
had a dodge dakota like thatr, seemed like it was cranking fast enough the it shoulda fired, hooked the cables to it and it was running in seconds. also jumpstarted a lot of cars did the same thing. luckily i could usually pushstart my dak.



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jrb

07-18-2003 20:49:01




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
I think you answered your own question, however remember its inparative on a 6 volt system to have good connections. have fun jrb



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Ed

07-18-2003 20:43:52




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
check all of the primary wiring to the dist and coil...if there is high resistance in the curcuit you will get a serious voltage drop during cranking...pay special attention to any "crimped on" terminal ends, than may be in this curcuit ...soldering them on can save alot of headaches



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Wayne Swenson

07-18-2003 20:41:28




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
Instead of guessing, TEST!!
Meaure point closed resistance (switch off); it should be 0.1 ohms or less.
I fixed two friends tractors that were "no starts" in the last 2 day. Both were points problems. The points were coated with some substance that prevented a good, clean, connection. Your ignition system cannot produce a strong spark without a clean set of points correctly gapped. Use a bit of lacquer thinner on a dollar bill to clean the connection.
If you use a metal points file, it can quickly wear through the tungsten coating to soft metal that will not hold a gap adjustment very long.

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Hugh MacKay

07-19-2003 16:02:46




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 Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????????? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 07-18-2003 20:41:28  
Wayne: I would like to take this opertuinity to apologize to you for my earlier responce to your post on testing. I did not use a very good spot to vent my frustrations with modern technology.



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Wayne Swenson

07-19-2003 21:52:24




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 Re: Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-19-2003 16:02:46  
Hugh; thank you for the apology; I know the frustration you have experienced. Been there, done that.
As a 33 year veteran teaching high school students Auto & Small Engine mechanics, I have learned to use and teach a systematic approach to a problem. Don't just jump in with both feet, analyize the situation and then use basic test equipment to isolate the problem area. Verify your work. Don't ASSUME!!!
Computers have changed the world but a technician needs COMMON SENSE to be able to analyze the basics and then let the computer enhance the results.
Good mechanics who want to find out what went wrong instead of just replacing parts are hard to find.
A lot of people giving suggestions based on their experiences make this forum very interesting & informative.

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Hugh MacKay

07-18-2003 20:51:08




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 Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????????? in reply to Wayne Swenson, 07-18-2003 20:41:28  
Wayne: TEST, that is what they did with my Buick that cost a $1,000. and still does the same thing. Plain good old common sence mechanic is what's needed and send some of you guys and your testers to Mars.



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Red Dave

07-19-2003 11:30:34




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 Re: Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-18-2003 20:51:08  
Hugh, Wayne gave sound advice there.

Just because someone can't find the problem with your Buick is no excuse for being rude to Wayne.

You owe him an apology.



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Hugh MacKay

07-19-2003 15:57:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????? in reply to Red Dave, 07-19-2003 11:30:34  
Dave: If my Buick where an isolated case I could may be agree with you. And yes irregardless I probably do owe Wayne an apology. My point is, and your right I didn't use a very good place to discuss the problem of new technology. I can however tell you of hundreds of cases of these computerized vehicles; trucks, cars and tractors; where by this new technology was suposed to be the answer to mankinds mobility problems. Much progress was made on engine design during the first half of the 20th century. My dad got 26 mpg with his 57 Chevy, as did many others. As of 2003 none of the full size sedans will do any better.

There were tractors in the mid 60s far more fuel efficient than the new ones are. I know of a situation where a early 90s CaseIH wouldn't go in the most ideal gear for farmer to use on forage harvester. It would go in the next higher and next lower. A CaseIH technicain spent 72 hours in the field at farmers expence. They got it working 4 times and really never knew what made it work. None of the fixes were permenant, and a week later another tractor took its place. I can name you dozens of situations like this. I was getting a new water pump for my 140 awhile back at dealer. Customer beside me in line up said," your pump is original and from 140, we have a 12 year old CaseIH not much larger tractor, now on its 3 water pump. And every time it has happened tractor engine got hot." I could go on and on and probably fill all 14 pages of discussion. No dave it's far broader than my Buick.

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g pop

07-18-2003 18:49:59




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
check the wire from the coil to the dist.,a bad connection on either side ,caused by rust,etc,can make a open .i have seen this sevaral times.



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MD SKY

07-18-2003 18:16:36




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
Sounds like the coil,maybe. But in 36 years of turning wrenches,the only condensers I have had fail are new ones.So I would disconnect it from the terminal,turn on the switch while holding the coil wire close to the block and open the points with a screwdriver. If you get a spark then the condenser is bad. GOOD LUCK !



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dmp

07-18-2003 17:44:41




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
our 450 did the same thing. It ran fine for one day and went to start it the next and would run at all. then after about 2 weeks of checking the cam and replacing head gaskets and such we found that the timing was 180 degrees off. i have no idea how that happened, we switched plug wires around and runs good as new. check the timing if you can. but before you go through all that put the coil on another tractor to make sure its good.

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Hugh MacKay

07-18-2003 16:19:40




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
John: Sounds like it caught something from my Buick. With it two computers one GM and one private and $1,000. in parts and it is still doing it.

Seriously I have over the years had this same thing happen with my Super A a few times. Once I blamed the condencer, once the coil and I am not sure I was right. I have also had a couple of sessions where by I cranked on starter for 10-20 seconds and upon letting off starter the tractor started to fire. Just seemed as though starter was robbing enough power so nothing was left for fire.

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James Williams

07-18-2003 18:18:35




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 Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????????? in reply to Hugh MacKay, 07-18-2003 16:19:40  
I had this happen to my 340,It was my starter, starter was pulling voltage from the coil



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gatractorman

07-18-2003 15:14:15




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 Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out????????????????? in reply to BIG JOHN, 07-18-2003 14:33:25  
I have saw on occasion where a bad connection somewhere would not allow power to the coil when cranking, the bad connection will let the starter work but nothing else, need a test light to see if power is still at the coil when cranking, also a bad battery will do the same way as a bad connection.



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Russ

07-18-2003 18:47:10




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 Re: Re: Can Anyone Figure this Out???????????????? in reply to gatractorman, 07-18-2003 15:14:15  
Farmall A: Make sure ever electrical connection
is cleaned to bright metal with a steel or brass
wire brush. Make sure the battery is fully
charged and measure the voltage level with a voltmeter. If the problem occurs again measure
the battery voltage and see if ithas dropped to a lower value than the maximum voltage recorded
earlier. Sometimes you may have a cell (appox.
2 volts going bad and dragging down the normal
battery performance. The engine will still
crank making you think things are not too bad
but the voltage levels for the ignition system
are marginal or too low to provide a good hot
spark at the right time.
If you have another battery available jumper
across the installed battery with a fully charged second battery during the no start period and see if it fires up.

There should be an old seasoned and retired tractor mechanic in your area who could drop by to talk about the problem and suggest possible cures.

Good luck

Russ

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