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Yet another starter question

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New Super A Man

07-15-2003 11:17:43




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In case any of you that responded to my earlier message read this, I was able to get the starter on my '52 SA to work again, for now, by removing it and puting in back in. I guess it will work until everything lands in the bad spot again. So I have a few questions. 1st Hugh Mackay mentioned a clutch starter vs. a bendix starter. I'm not completely sure of the difference, but correct me if I'm wrong. One the bendix starter the drive gear is thrown forward to engage the ring gear when the starter is activated and then retracts. On a clutch starter, the gear is always in contact with the ring gear, but spins free when the engine is running, but when starter is activated, the clutch engages and turns the engine over, sort of like an A/C pulley on a car. Do I have this correct? If so, I have a bendix type. If not, please enlighten me. 2nd Where would you recommend I go looking for a clutch starter? IH Case dealer, boneyard, starter/generator repair shop, etc? Think I could find just the drive and use the same motor, which seems to be working good so far. Again, thanks for the help, you guys are great!

Kevin

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Haas

07-15-2003 18:39:12




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 Re: Yet another starter question in reply to New Super A Man, 07-15-2003 11:17:43  
Look in the yellow pages and find a starter/generator shop near you. They will be able to repair or replace the bendix in your starter.



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VAJerry

07-15-2003 14:29:35




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 Re: Yet another starter question in reply to New Super A Man, 07-15-2003 11:17:43  
Is the bad spot on the starter or the fly wheel?



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Bob M

07-15-2003 13:11:07




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 Re: Yet another starter question in reply to New Super A Man, 07-15-2003 11:17:43  
New SA Guy - You've got the bendix drive figured out! However what you refer to as a "clutch starter" is actually a "solenoid shifted pinion" type starter. It uses a solenoid mounted on the starter to physically shift the starter pinion to engage the ring gear. Once the pinion is fully engaged the solenoid then closes the power circuit to the starter causing the starter to crank the motor. Once the motor fires and the operator releases the starter button, a spring in the solenoid retracts the pinion back out of the ring gear. An overrunning clutch is provided in the pinion to prevent ring gear from overspeeding the starter in the event the operator delays releasing the start button after the engine starts.

I doubt you will find a solenoid-shifted starter that will fit your SA - the whole design of the starter is different. In addition you would need to wire up a pushbutton (or key-type switch) to control the starter solenoid. However it is not difficult nor expensive to replace the bendix/pinion assembly (the "starter drive") on an existing starter. Last time I checked a new starter drive lettered Farmall was about $50 or so.

Hope this helps...

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Hugh MacKay again

07-16-2003 21:15:23




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 Re: Re: Yet another starter question in reply to Bob M, 07-15-2003 13:11:07  
Bob: I might add that this new starter drive that I really only became aware of 5-6 years ago, in many ways resembles the centrifical clutch drives used to drive chain on most chain saws.

Another item, my brother changed his Farmall 230 to 12 volt as per your diagrams. I was there one day and he was concerned how hard the starter was hitting when engaged. We removed his starter and yes it had the old Bendix type starter drive. He has since changed to this new type and tells me it corrected the problem. He was concerned the old starter drive was going to break something.

I have no idea how long these have been around, just the fact the IH parts man I had dealt with for 35 years said we haven't ordered the old type in years. Prior to that I hadn't done any starter work to my Super A or 130 in recent memory. So just maybe we are discussing something everyone has been using for 25 years, and in Truro, Nova Scotia they call it a clutch type, while most of the rest of the world call it a Bendix. We may well be into another one of those terminology items where in some parts it is called one thing while in other areas it is called something else.

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Hugh MacKay

07-16-2003 20:31:02




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 Re: Re: Yet another starter question in reply to Bob M, 07-15-2003 13:11:07  
Bob: What you describe in your post is definately not what I am talking about. Several years ago I took both starters from my Super A and 130 to a rebuilder. When they left for rebuilding they both had the old Bendix starter drive. When they arrived back the drives were different. One was same as old drive while the other was quite different. I installed the starters, and the old type on Super A did not engage any better than when it left. It would start tractor, but not well. Sometimes it wouldn't engage while orther time it would just turn engine a bit and kick out. I switched starters and problem followed starter. In fact on 130 that starter would only grind on ring gear and as 130 had a new ring gear I was not about to allow that.

I phoned the rebuilder and discussed my problem with him. He advised when he did starters he only had one drive in stock and he picked up the other from the CaseIH dealer. I took both starters back, just to be sure which came from rebuilder and which came from CaseIH, Turns out the new type that worked well in both tractors came from CaseIH. We called CaseIH and they had another. Rebuilder started on starter and I went to CaseIH. The parts man at CaseIH whom I've dealt with for 35 years told me they don't even order the old type in anymore, that the new CLUTCH TYPE is far superior. I have to agree, I haven't had a bit of trouble since. There is definately no solinoid on this just the same old starter switch that Super A's, 100s and 130 have had for years. I had never been happy with the old type starter drive. So when I call this a clutch starter drive I am only repeating what a 40 year vetran IH parts man called it.

These new starter drives work very well also on tractors converted to 12 volt, they are smooth to engage. I will suggest one other item, I have been told lately these new starter drives we are getting are a made in Canada item. I am not certain the guy who told me this knew what he is talking about. I can tell you this from partaking on forums, there are items we are getting here in Canada that are different from items discussed on forums.

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tn terry t

07-15-2003 18:14:12




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 Re: Re: Yet another starter question in reply to Bob M, 07-15-2003 13:11:07  
i bought a starer drive for my 140 three weeks ago for TWENTY bucks at a local auto parts store here in middle tn



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New Super A Man

07-16-2003 07:12:58




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 Re: Re: Re: Yet another starter question in reply to tn terry t , 07-15-2003 18:14:12  
Hey,

Which parts store carried tractor starter parts? I'm sure it wasn't a chain discount parts store, but maybe we've got frachise here that carries them too. I've changed the drives out on car starters, so tractor shouldn't be too hard.



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Peabody

07-15-2003 20:21:15




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 Re: Re: Re: Yet another starter question in reply to tn terry t , 07-15-2003 18:14:12  
Yeah, but for those of us who are uncomfortable about installing it ourselves, the shop is going to charge $50-75 to do the job, parts and labor.



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