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Why do early IH deisel engines have problems??

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R Wyler

02-02-2002 15:22:53




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I have a gasoline M and it gives me no trouble but when I hear people speaking of the Deisel IH engines particularly from the 30s through 50s I do not hear them say anything particularly swell about them. How tough are these engines? And why do I hear about them having problems with the heads cracking? And why can't they be direct started?




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frankie

02-04-2002 16:34:52




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
Its the operators, not the brand, Ive owned many gas start, diesel run engines, very good engine, but you have to know how to start and stop to avoid problems with the IH



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John

11-25-2003 18:23:15




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have proble in reply to frankie, 02-04-2002 16:34:52  
Owning a 1948 M.D I just purchased I would love feed back on just what is the correct procedure in stating the Gas Diesel eng. Also anything to be aware of. Thanks John



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R Wyler

02-04-2002 17:56:07




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to frankie, 02-04-2002 16:34:52  
Yes you are right if the operator does not take proper care of things equipment will fail. Thanks for the followup.



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Red Rider

02-02-2002 18:18:56




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
I think a little common sense goes a long way. Gas or Diesel can be a maintenance nightmare if you don't use a little common sense. You should not shut any engine down from a heavy load. If that water in the block is say 180 degrees under load at operating RPM with all that water circulating what do you think the temp will climb to if that engine is instantly turned off. Your Car, Truck or tractor will suffer if not taken care of. If you have one of these IH Gas start Diesels, (I have three) and don't have a IH operators manuel or service manuel then you should get one. There is a wealth of information in them on the proper operation and care of your tractor.

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R Wyler

02-02-2002 19:43:33




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Red Rider, 02-02-2002 18:18:56  
Thank you for the information. You are right about letting them idle a while before being turned off.



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Poppin' Johnny

02-02-2002 18:06:14




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
We have a Super MD. Great engine to work with, just maybe not on. The good thing is that it'll start ok in most any weather. If the engine is still warm from running, you can start it back up in diesel mode. Like what has already been said, the cylinder heads were their weak point. Otherwise, they'll keep pulling "till the cows come home"



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R Wyler

02-02-2002 19:46:39




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Poppin' Johnny, 02-02-2002 18:06:14  
Well I take it they are a tough engine. Thank you for the reply.



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Haas

02-02-2002 17:23:07




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
I grew up on an MD, and I would say it was a very tough tractor. We worked that tractor real hard, farming 400 acres with it. We plowed, disked, pulled a field chopper did heavy belt work and all sorts of other things. It got minimal maintenance and the only problem I ever knew of was with the fuel filters (there is that minimal maintenance). Also, we never followed the shut down procedure of switching to gas for shut down, we just pushed the diesel speed control to shut off. My Dad bought the tractor new around 1950 and it was used for more than 20 years until he quit farming. As to the hand crank. You could start it with the hand crank, but it took a real man, and we seldom used that method. We did start it on occasion when the batteries were down by pulling it with another tractor, or connecting the belt pulley to another tractor (usually the Super A). And yes, you can direct start these engines. We never did it on the one my Dad had, but the one I have now has been started that way. It takes a couple of shots of ether and it will start. I only did that when I first got it because I could not get it to start on the gas side at first because of ignition problems.

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R Wyler

02-02-2002 19:52:09




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Haas, 02-02-2002 17:23:07  
Thank you for the information that is very interesting if that MD did all that work for 20 years it must be tough.



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Haas

02-03-2002 05:53:08




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 19:52:09  
And I forgot to say, after those 20 years of work, it had never been overhauled and as far as I know, still had good oil pressure and did not use any oil. It had no hour meter, so I don't know how many hours it had, but I'm sure it was thousands. I know I spent plenty of hours on it myself.



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Old Hand

02-02-2002 17:21:21




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
Many diesels of that era were started by a pony engine. This was a small gasoline engine coupled to diesel engine much like electric starter. You would start small engine let it warm up a bit engage clutch and spin diesel engine until it started. Most of the ones I saw were on earth moving equipment.



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R Wyler

02-02-2002 19:55:51




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Old Hand, 02-02-2002 17:21:21  
Thank you for the reply. I know that some of the earlier john deere deisels had these starting engines.



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Steven@nd

02-02-2002 16:44:34




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
A few things:

Technology did NOT exist to design a strong enough engine to make enough compression to start directly. Diesel engines ignite the fuel from the heat of compression, not a spark plug.

IH start on gas diesels have very complex castings that had a few thin spots and were prone to crack if not shut down properly. You should switch back to gas before shutting down because the gasoline will burn cooler due to having less compression then when in the diesel mode. ALSO, switching to gas at shutdown burns out the diesel fuel and makes starting easier next time. As soon as the engine is shut down you need to switch the lever back to diesel or the decompression valves will warp.

YES, the IH start on gas diesel is the only diesel engine you could ever hope to crank start. The reason is the compression that a diesel engine needs makes it very difficult to turn over the compression stroke fast enough to create enough heat to ignite.

The start on gas diesel was the best starting diesel engine in colder climates in its day. Later came the glow plugs, which heated the combustion chamber so that ignition could occur. And the glow plugs had to be used winter AND summer because again there wasn't enough compression to ignite the mix until the engine was running.

The IH engines with glow plugs also cracked and warped heads, probably just a flaw in the design. You never hear of an 806 or anything after that having a cracked head.

Here is some food for though also: most of the H's and M's I've taken apart also have hairline cracks in the heads, nothing that would ever leak, but cracked nonetheless.

Steven

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ohioron

02-02-2002 15:43:28




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
I always heard that these old diesels were the only diesels that could be hand crank started since they started on gas. Don't know if that is true because I never had to start it that way but might be true.



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R Wyler

02-02-2002 16:46:07




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to ohioron, 02-02-2002 15:43:28  
Thank you for the information.



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Glenn(WV)

02-02-2002 15:28:31




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 Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to R Wyler, 02-02-2002 15:22:53  
The start-on-gas diesels have a very complex head casting, which makes them prone to cracking if care is not taken at engine shutdown. They can't be direct-started because, among other things, they have no glowplugs.



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R Wyler

02-02-2002 16:50:08




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Glenn(WV), 02-02-2002 15:28:31  
Thank you for the information. The head design on these engines explains there high cost.



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Hey Glenn

02-02-2002 16:20:52




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 Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Glenn(WV), 02-02-2002 15:28:31  
I am looking at a farmall 400 that starts on gas and switches to diesel, what do you mean by care before you shut it down?. Do you mean that if the tractor is worked hard you should allow the engine to idle for 10-15 minutes to allow the engine to slowly cool. I know that if you don't and shut it down really hot it will cause warpage or is there something else that should be done?.



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MD's to 450D's

02-02-2002 17:14:19




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Hey Glenn, 02-02-2002 16:20:52  
When worked, allow time to cool off. Maybe 10 minutes at half throttle while you do something else thats useful. Then go back to gas for half minute and turn electrical switch off. When it stops, return levers from gas mode BACT TO DIESEL MODE.
When starting, allow just enough time to warm to allow diesel mode. To reduce unneeded smoke, switch off gas mode and QUICKLY(befor RPM's stop) open diesel throttle to 1/3 to half. It should catch on diesel WITHOUT smoking. ALSO allow some time to WARM up befor heavy load. ( we had MD & SMD 20+ years WITHOUT any head problems) old MD'er

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Haas

02-02-2002 17:10:47




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 Re: Re: Re: Why do early IH deisel engines have problems?? in reply to Hey Glenn, 02-02-2002 16:20:52  
You should let the diesel idle for several minutes to cool before shut down. Then to shut down, switch back to gas mode and turn the gas off to the carb and let it run out. Then be sure to switch the starting lever back to diesel. Moving the starting lever back to diesel is very important, because this seats the decompression valves, allowing them to cool on their seat. If not seated, they can warp, causing obvious problems.

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