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Farmall & IHC Tractors Discussion Forum
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Batttery Cable Hookup

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Joshua Lawton

05-14-2007 06:30:12




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All:

I"m sorry to waste your time with what I am sure is a simple question for you experts. My "52H is finally back together and the last thing I need to do is hook up the new battery. The system was converted to 12V some time ago and I have an alternator installed. Do I hook the ground strap to the negative or postive terminal on the battery? Thanks,

Josh




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Janicholson

05-14-2007 06:34:23




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Joshua Lawton, 05-14-2007 06:30:12  
Yes, neg to ground (assumes a automotive alternator, not a special unit designed for Pos ground) Good "O" gauge cables are important. JimN



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Bob M

05-14-2007 07:20:41




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Janicholson, 05-14-2007 06:34:23  
Jim - On a 12 volt-converted tractor, smaller diameter cables (eg. AWG #2) work fine.

In fact smaller cables may actually help extend starter life by somewhat limiting starter "inrush" current. This in turn reduces shock on the starter and drive when you first hit the starter switch.

But even the smaller cables still let the starter spin the engine way faster than the stock 6 volt system ever could.

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Josh - Like Jim says: Unless you have a real oddball alternator arranged (and marked) for positive ground, the negative battery cable is the one that must be grounded.

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John T

05-14-2007 09:32:33




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Bob M, 05-14-2007 07:20:41  
Gee Bob, youre gettin awful techy on us now lol like Ive NEVER done that huh. Those 6 volt starters really do kick pretty hard at 12 volts but they sure crank em over "till who tied the pup" until one might trash the Bendix or flywheel teeth huh.

John T

PS Looks like Im only doing the Wico Mag Workshop at New York Expo in July (Friday 10 AM I think) but we have several open round tables where anything may be asked, maybe you better be there if I get stuck??

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Bob M

05-14-2007 10:18:53




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to John T, 05-14-2007 09:32:33  
John T - I kinda stumbled into that smaller cable thing.

After I first converted my Super M to 12 volts (and retained the original 1/0 cables) when the starter engaged the mechanical shock was so severe you could feel it even in the seat. After a couple seasons of getting slammed like that the bendix blew apart and had to be replaced.

On the advice of the guy at the starter shop I substituted a lighter #4 for the #1/0 hot cable when reinstalled the starter. Discovered this noticably softened the initial shock of starter engagement, yet still permitted the starter to crank the engine extremely fast.

My theory: The slight added resistance of the smaller cable reduces the initial starter inrush (locked rotor) current and initial armature acceleration. This then reduces the mechanical shock of bendix engagement. However once the starter gets spun up, the faster armature RPM results in higher back EMF which causes the starter to draw LESS current than it does on 6 volts. (Higher armature RPM = greater back EMF = less running current). At this point the higher resistance of the #4 cable becomes essentially inconsequential.

(Disclaimer: I could be all wrong. This is simply how I rationalized what I've observed and stuff I remember from EE courses taken 35+ years ago...)

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"maybe you better be there if I get stuck??"

Come on John T!!! Unless you "get stuck" in a muddy parking lot at the Expo and need a tow, I doubt there's much I'll be able to help YOU out with...

Heck - I can barely SPELL "Wico", let alone answer questions about 'em!

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BF8690

05-14-2007 12:30:10




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Bob M, 05-14-2007 10:18:53  
You're almost correct in your theory. The difference in the resistance between those two cables would not be seen unless you stretched them over a very long distance, like 100 + feet. However, current is carried around the outer edge of each individual strand of copper wire inside that cable. The 1/0 has many more individual wires than the AWG 4 wire. AWG 4 = less current carrying capability than the AWG 1/0. I'm an aircraft electrician.

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BF8690

05-14-2007 11:54:01




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Bob M, 05-14-2007 10:18:53  
You're almost correct in your theory. The difference in the resistance between those two cables would not be seen unless you stretched them over a very long distance, like 100 + feet. However, current is carried around the outer edge of each individual strand of copper wire inside that cable. The 1/0 has many more individual wires than the AWG 4 wire. AWG 4 = less current carrying capability than the AWG 1/0. I'm an aircraft electrician.

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John T

05-14-2007 12:10:46




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to BF8690, 05-14-2007 11:54:01  
BF, Love this sparky chat, hope we dont bore the others. Question for ya, if youre talking about what I call the "skin effect" in cables of how most of the electrons migrate to and are carried in the outer circumference of a wire?? I was told that is frequency dependant and really dont happen much at all at DC versus higher frequency AC when its relevant. I dont know beans about aircraft electronics and enjoy learning n chatting on this stuff. Care to comment about current flow in cables transmitting DC??? Cuz I thought skin effect still mattered but just not fer sure..... .....

John T (old n rusty but still wanna learn)

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Bob M

05-14-2007 12:47:31




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to John T, 05-14-2007 12:10:46  
I gotta agree with you John T - that's it how was taught to me too. "Skin effect" is an frequency-dependent AC phenomenom. For DC and low frequency (eg. 60Hz) AC currents, the only thing matters is cross sectional area of the conductor. Skin effect simply is a non-factor for DC and low freq AC.

Ie. a #1/0 1045 strand copper welding cable, #1/0 273 strand locomotive cable, #1/0, 133 strand automotive battery cable, #1/0 19 strand aerial cable and a 0.083" square inch solid copper bus bar all exhibit exactly the same DC resistance per unit length. The only reason for different strand diameters/numbers of strands is to provide the degree of mechanical flexibility required for a particular application.

However for AC currents at RF frequencies all I know is skin effect and conductor surface area become VERY critical. (Beyond that RF is a field which I don't begin to comprehend!)

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BF8690

05-14-2007 14:08:24




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Bob M, 05-14-2007 12:47:31  
Actually, there is no such thing true as direct current. All current has some sort of alternating effect. DC is created from AC through a Rectifer circuit of some sort. The old days they used points, nowadays they use diodes. The most efficient DC systems are created from generators/alternators with multiposts or multiple phases. In otherwords, a 6 phase generator can produce more efficient DC than a 3 phase. Conversly, the more frequency the more efficient the created DC is. So, the generators we use on aircraft are 3 cycle,110 VAC, 120 degrees per phase, and rotate at 400HZ. Because of the high HZ it creates DC with very little ripple effect. What a rectifier does is pull voltage off of the top portion of the positive part of the AC sign wave. The more of these the less ripple effect you have because the gaps between pulses are tighter. Frequency will always be there. It takes super sensative equipment to see it in DC voltage, but it's there. Have you ever passed a car or a motorcycle and see the head lamp pulsing? That is the first sign of a voltage regulator going bad. The regulator is actually a rectifier/regulator. So you guys are correct in that AC will have an increased skin effect but that does not mean that DC will not have a skin effect at all. Because DC is really a pulsing signal, it just doesn't go through the full sign wave, the signal will fluctuate minutely so it does have skin effect. Contraray to popular beilief alternators are really AC generators but instead of having 3 phases it will have many more, some as many as 12.

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Janicholson

05-14-2007 07:48:33




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Bob M, 05-14-2007 07:20:41  
I hate voltage drop in general. And some cable lengths at 12v are too long for the typical #4 wire (bat under seat). We have never encountered grief in 25yrs of 12v on 6v starters. But I see your point. JimN



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Joshua Lawton

05-14-2007 06:39:59




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 Re: Batttery Cable Hookup in reply to Janicholson, 05-14-2007 06:34:23  
Thanks a lot!



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