Best Dozer made ?????????

You posited what was the Best Dozer Made?

You did not ask, who still had parts available? Who was still in business? How fast I can get the parts? Those are substantially different questions? You did not state or ask today. Your qestion is so vauge that any discourse on this subject matter is or can be factually correct.

If you ask for lasting long. You just shot yourself in the foot. The HD11 is much older than your CAT. Beats it by 15 years or more and it is still running. My HD9 beats that by almost 22 years. Mine came out of lime stone Rock quarry. I now have a full new UC under it and it is almost ready to go.

I know in Idaho where there is an HD9 still in active use in a quarry. CATS could not hold up. My father-in-laws 1947 TD9 beats that by 29 years and we still use it. I do not see a whole lot of CATs that age running around and in production use.

So I guess your CAT's longivity is not that high. A good freind of mine has run CAT for 30 years and almost every CAT made and a wide variety of AC and IH equipment over those thirty years. you know what, he owns a IH TD9. He would not trade it for any CAT of that era. Many guys would say CAT is over rated.

Remember this board is for a wide variety of machines and individuals having crawlers. This is not ACMOC. No fun to rant and rave in an all CAT world.

CAT is not so hot on parts availablity either. Take the 933F and try to find a truck frame or the pinion shaft--which was a major failure point on those machines. They do not exist..... I almost made a mistake of owning that machine. I checked parts aviailablity. Just as bad as my AC except that roller shells could still be bought.

I compared close to same generation of machine. If we compare tractor to tractor when it was built, the AC had many innovations. You forgot to mention the fact that AC was the first to produce permanenatly sealed rollers ect. AC was the first with Unit construction which made it very simple to work on the drive train with out full disassembly. They were the first with fully lift out on the steering brakes.

AC was the first to succesfully produce a production machine with over 500HP. For a long time they produced the world's largest dozer.

Now I have never had a nut cross threaded to date. I had a shaft that was damaged and went to a machine shop and had it fixed for a fraction of the price that it would cost for CAT. When it happens just take that to a machine shop and have them fix it. Try that with CAT, Not.

You are comparing a 1976 tractor with one made in between 1955 to 1960. If it is a straight HD11, you have a DD drive trany and the 76 will have a TC, with a mulitplier of 2-3x on the torque. The fact that the HD11 is junk is as much a function of maintenace and use/abuse of the machine and the fact that the technology is so radically different.

A little TD6 will push an DD HD11 all over the place if the grousers are worn to the nub, the rails are worn and the sprocket is bad.

I can take an FD51 or HD41 and tow a Cat D8 all day long and the the only thing it could do is spin it tracks. They had so much torque they were know for shattering their final drive shaft. Got a little too much there. The HD31 with a few less horse did not have that problem.

Your qestion begs other questions as to how to arrive at the best dozer. Well as stated earlier. Compare like machines within the same era and the results will be different.

AC is gone, so is IH, Dresser. They lost not because they were bad machines, the farm economy ulimately sunk the parent companies and in some cases poor management. Is FA a good machine now, I would question that, but you know they have taken a lot of market share from CAT and so has Komatsu--IH.

Interesting enough CAT is now making or starting down the the same misadventures that IH and AC made. They are now wanting to produce farm related equipment and combines.

I look forward to more postitive discourse on this subject matter.

This forum is for everyone. Remember that there is more than CAT out there.....

There were FA dozers doing the work on the new Super Target for grading ect.

Interesting to see on many UP railroad projects that Komatsu is the dominant piece of equipment for dozers ect.

On I80 this summer in IA there were a number of crews using the Dresser TD15 Series crawler along with CAT.

See a lot of Case and JD Backhoes.

You are right how can make money when you have a $250000 dollar bill to pay for one machine and you are down. That computes to $2.90 per hour 24 per day in interest for one year. So for the 14 hrs you do no work that is $40.60 you have to make up before you even start the next day. This interest calc is strait line and reflects a one year pay off. Interest at 10$

Than again on 30k with 5 crawlers, I can make more money with less work at a substantially lower fee. I can do it as a hobby and not say. Wow that worn out 50's era D6 cable dozer that I bought for 50K needs about 20K in UC work and other stuff. Well got to get working costing too much for a hobby and need to charge $105 per hour to make anything.

Ever wonder why so many guys doing earth work go bankrupt running CAT equipment. Huge contractor NELCON just went under.

Clearly CAT is dominant here but not over the whole world.

Try finding clutch parts or engine parts for the 212 grader in two days. You will get this funny blank stare. There is a whole list of CAT machines for which parts are impossible to find or takes a long time to get.

Each one of us can pick out a fact or a molehill and make it in to a mountain. One interesting point about this debate, if you were to call it such, it is a never can win. Like Socrates asking the question in Athens to his philoshy student "What IF"

Will have to see what further rebuttal is needed hereinbelow that has been posted.

Cheers.

IF it ain't a CAT its a DOG

FA today may be junk, that is your oppinion, I understand you may have had problems with several FA models that you have had. I will also tell you that FA has improved and expanded their dealer network.

Remeber your question that started with what is the best machine made. Now you are answering questions and providing rebuttal to different questions.

HOLT is no longer around..... Best is no longer around. They had to merge into CAT to survive. SO!!! Whats the big deal. AC/FA are still around, IH/Dresser/Komatusu are still around. I guess that being around may not be all that it is cracked up to be.

Maybe Komatsu will pull out of the market, until that happens it has not happened. CAT is faced with the same problems as are all of the heavy equipment manufactures Farm and Industrial. They all got problems with emissions ect.

Do you get what you pay for. Remember if you have $160,000 to $250,000 or more invested in one machine than break downs are costly and time is money. But if you have 5 machines fully rebuilt but a bit slower for $30,000. I can charge less make more and break downs are not all that costly and clients are not screaming about a huge bill. Just think of the interest clock ticking on $250,000 + for one machine, add that to fuel, cost for parts, labor. No wonder, any one would be paranoid about downtime and parts avilability.

I have one admission against interest. I do recommend that a CAT supplied part be bought for AC and FA machines. Its the glue for glueing the neoprene to the bellows and seals. Cheaper than AC or FA. So I guess you got me on that one. Glue

Interesting how patents or for that matter intellectual property can change the course of things. It is in the constitution and we can thank Thomas Jefferson for starting the USPTO--United States Patent and Trademark Office. Intersting side line, letters patent used to be issued by the King of England and was for makers of playing cards. A bit of triva. Infringement suits are expensive and the lawyers are paid big dollars.

Thanks wk

Opinions?

Think AC HD 5 or 9 were one of the best ever made. One of the easiest to fix, run and would turn circles around a CAT. Down side too finely engineered. I like it when I can take a steering cluch out with out haveing to break the tracks, take the finals out to fix that. aka 933F. or take the motor out to get to the clutch or trany.

IH also makes a very fine machine and has many good merits.

Point is not what is the best Dozer ever made. It is what you like and what you think is best for your needs, and budget and what you grew up on. Also what is best is how easy is it to fix.

Can I make the part myself. CAT and IH use a lot of hardened parts. So they are tough to have a shop make or repair with out expensive heat treating.

If you want to get raped buy a CAT. If you like getting raped for a long time thereafter on parts costs buy a CAT. If you like things that only a CAT dealer can fix than get a CAT. Not anti-CAT, they are fine machine not withstanding the reasons stated hereinabove.

These are some of my oppinions. Others will chime in and will have very valid points and can add merit to the propounded question which by the way has no answer. It is like the Socratic qestion of "What IF"

wk

That should end that. Robert is correct on what he said. That is my experience.

How good a machine runs is a function of the operator and maintenance. You keep a machine properly maintained and watch everything closely and you can get a lont time mtbf--mean time between failure.

Who is to say CAT will stay in production of Combines and AG stuff. They did that once before and quit.....

End of story.