ethanol questions

It's been about a year and a half since gasoline delivered to the farm here has alcohol in it. I have had none of the problems of separation, water, corrosion, etc. that I had heard about and dreaded. I haven't tracked consumption. I use it in lots of different things- old tractors, old trucks, small engines, car and pickup, etc.
Today I noticed a higher exhaust gas temp. (1500F) than I have ever seen before. I'm wondering if a higher percentage alcohol is the cause? Does anyone here know how the fuel properties change as more alcohol is added? Does it burn hotter? How about detonation? I have one older tractor, I just bought, with higher compression, that's noted for knocking. How will alcohol effect that?

How did you measure the temp and at what point in the exhuast system?

I was told by a couple mechanics & the owner at the local John Deere dealers , that the new gasoline with alcohol in it is raising cane with older small engines . So they advised using an additive for in the gas cans to help prevent that happening . I collect old chain saws (mostly Pioneer) & I"ve gotten some that the gas line & filter are a mess up from guys using this new gas . They shared that the saws ran ok until they started using it . But they didn"t want to pay for repairs so I end up with them (which is ok by me) . God bless

(quoted from post at 19:50:34 03/25/11) It's been about a year and a half since gasoline delivered to the farm here has alcohol in it. I have had none of the problems of separation, water, corrosion, etc. that I had heard about and dreaded. I haven't tracked consumption. I use it in lots of different things- old tractors, old trucks, small engines, car and pickup, etc.
Today I noticed a higher exhaust gas temp. (1500F) than I have ever seen before. I'm wondering if a higher percentage alcohol is the cause? Does anyone here know how the fuel properties change as more alcohol is added? Does it burn hotter? How about detonation? I have one older tractor, I just bought, with higher compression, that's noted for knocking. How will alcohol effect that?

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thanol actually increases the octane rating of gasoline, so should help with any detonation problem. Separation over time: absolutely! Don't take my word for it, just put some in a plastic or glass bottle & leave somewhat vented (just not sealed) & you will see water absorption & separation over a lot less time than a year. BTDT.

Ethanol raises octane rating, so detonation should be less problem. On a fixed main jet carb, ethanol / gasoline blends will lean out the mixture some, so a very lean mix will burn hotter.
If your curious about how much Ethanol is actually in your fuel, your Briggs & Stratton dealer can get you their simple little gasahol / ethanol test kit. Cost under $10 is simple and accurate. Nothing in it to replace or wear out.

The briggs part # for the Ethanol test kit is
795161.

It is best to keep Ethanol away from small 2 cycle Engines , i have learned that Chainsaws And Such engines are Trouble free if You USE HI TEST only ,, the briggs stuff around here gets hi test too,,. have run e-85 in deere kawasaki lawn mower with no ill effects but feel it is not a good idea..after THIS HAPPENED :,,. over last 5 years, i have gradualy increased e-85 to 100% in the suumer monthes,, The Best Success I have is in My Gasser Case Tractors,, Virtually trouble free , and e-85 is in them now , BUT now the trouble : I Also ran it in My FORD F-600 grain truck and my 300 massey combine ,with minor adjustments , all ran fine ,,THEN IT HAPPENED all in one week , fuel pump failed on the f-600 and filled the crankcase full of gas ,, combine electric fuel pump failed , all the gaskets were melted to the vicosity of caulk ,Made repairs on all and went back to e-10 regular , couple monthes later the carb gaskets on the f-600 siphoned gas into the crankcase again .. rebuilt carb ,, changed oil again , added LUCAS AGAIN , made a couple more loads of corn to the river with the f - 600 and throwed a rod , gasoline must a gaulded the bearings,, motor had 139,000 miles ... ,.Sometimes We wonder if there was some odd ball killer solvent in the E-85 we got that week , because it all happened on the Same tank of e-85 ,, last Time i posted this someone made fun of the way i type and concluded i had psycosis ? wtf/? and up theirs! ,.. the Question I have to ALL of You who USE E -85 is,, if you have had the same problems with gaskets turning to gel as i have.. Could be just my bad luck , because it seems to work well with no ill effects for some guys ... let me know , thanx jh

About a month ago I read on a forum that I frequent that on the east coast ethanol (10%) was added(dumped in the tank) at the terminal where the tankers filled to deliver to gas stations. In other areas of the country where e85 is used the ethanol was blended in the gasoline at the refinery. It seems where the ethanol is just dumped in the tanks with gasoline before delivery is where the problem comes. The first part of last year I used gas with 10% ethanol. Problems I had was mainly with chainsaw gas. If the gas I mixed sat in the can over 10 days the ethanol separated and then turned
cloudy with moisture and none of the saws would start after that. So I'd dump the gas and mix up a new batch and the saws would start and run again.

The little country store I buy my gas from started getting ethanol free gas around August last year. Went through the winter with no chainsaw problems. With the high humidity we have on the east coast states even 10% ethanol is a problem if it isn't used/burned within 10 days. Gas starts to smell old after 10 days too. My lawn mower and leaf vac. sat with 10% ethanol gas in them till Dec. and started getting leaves up then. Filled them both with gas and both started leaking gas from all the gas hoses on them both at the same time. They were leaking bad enough that I wouldn't run them in fear of a fire. Replaced all fuel lines on them then. I just hope we can continue to get ethanol free gas till the issue is resolved.

We've had 10% ethanol gas in Minnesota for close to 2 decades now, and like you, just don't see the problem. Lot of it is in people's heads, gotta blame something.

Ethanol will clean sludge out of a tank; a lot of people run into that problem, 'blame' the fuel for what is actually an old tank that is all gummed up & full of junk.

Now we've been running B2 - B5 diesel for several years here in Minnesota, and it too works fine. People gotta blame something tho.....

Whatever.

--->Paul

here in Colorado's high altitude, we use 10% ethanol, we burn more gas than if they wouldn't put it in. burns too quickly, if left gas in cans, tank,etc, turns quickly, put 5 gals in tractors, not 2 months later, smelled like turpentine, making tractors run sluggish, cars not a bad, because it doesn't stay in tank long enough to turn. if i run premium, it's not as bad.

The common practice is to blend the alcohol into the gasoline as it is loaded into the tanker truck for delivery to a station. The shelf life for ethanol is considered to be about three months. As noted in another post, in high humidity conditions problems may start to occur much sooner than three months.

Ethanol is hydroscopic. If stored in unsealed containers it will absorb water out of the air. This absorbed water will mix with the alcohol. When the water contamination reaches about .5%, separation of the water/alcohol from the gasoline will occur. That is only about one tablespoon of water per gallon of ethanol.

Alcohol is used to increase the octane of ethanol fuel. Once separation occurs the remaining gasoline may have an octane rating in the 70s.

Exhaust gas temperature is a result of air density. Cold dry, high pressure air will run leaner and hotter than high temperature low pressure air.

Winter temperatures result in denser air than summer temps. My airplane in summer will seldom exceed 1425 degrees at max lean mixture, but in winter It will sometimes exceed 1475 degrees at max lean.

alcohol actuallty burns colder and has a higher octane rating than the same fuel without alcohol.

Gene

I got to agree with Paul. Never had a problem with it since it came out. I now run E15 from a blender pump and like it. Old tractors sit over winter and I can go out and they start with no problems. I have yet to see E10 get cloudy in 10 days or ever start to smell like turpentine. All I know is E10 yesterday was $3.39 at the Shell station and regular without ethanol was $3.59. Makes for an easy choice for me. But in reality, it all has ethanol in it to meet fed. reg. It just doesn't have up to 10% as the E10 is advertised to have.

What engine? What fuel? I was running full rich. O-320 low compression, auto fuel. It was definitely dense, cold, dry air.

My 2005 Ford Taurus came from the factory as a flex fuel vehicle, E-85 or gas. I ran E-85 for most of a year, getting the fuel from a high volume station. In the warm weather it cranked a long time before starting using the E-85, after going back to the low percentage ethanol, the starting and mileage performance has significantly improved. Your high exhaust temp reminds me of the WWII bombers leaning the fuel mixtures to stretch their fuel to get back home. This caused the engines to overheat but was preferable to not getting back at all. Something may have changed that has caused your engine to run leaner. It is my understanding that the valves in engines were changed to dissipate the higher temps when alcohol is used.

I have never had any small engine problems using E10 in dry ND. I have nothing that is FFV rated, so I rarely blend fuel above E50, and that in summer in only fuel injected rigs.

We now have a few area blender pumps dispensing 87 gasoline, 90 E10, E30, E85 from the same pump.
Gas and E10 is the same price, E30 is 40 cents cheaper, E85 is 80 cents cheaper.
The E30 seems to work / start fine, even on the below 0 winter days in the FI engines.

Ethanol blended fuel has been a fact of life for over 30 years, the car makers got it together and switched to E compatable fuel system parts 28 years ago, so I have no patience for a small engine maker that still refuses to fix the problems with running what is now "normal" E10 blend fuel. If it says " no ethanol in the operators manual, that engine will not follow me home. Thats the only way I can get their attention.

RM-had very similar experiences with 2 weed eaters, 1 chain saw, and a Toro powerhead for a multi-use tool (tiller/bush trimmer). Had to replace fuel lines on all as they had turned slimey where immersed in gas, and then solidified in air. Think all the plasticizer was leeched from the lines. Smelled terrible, too.

I'll bet you've had ethanol in your gas for a lot longer than the past year and a half. The percentage may be a bit higher, but unless you've been personally testing for ethanol, you should assume everything your supplier tells you is a lie.

Alcohol is cooler and has less energy and more antiknock properties. It may need to be a bit richer mixture if it was on the lean edge before. The mixture needs more of it to keep from being lean. I think other factors like timing might be affecting your EGT. Jim

For ethanol info go the forum at speedtalk.com This is a group of very serious engine builders that really know what is going on. Check the older for info before posting, there is a good chance it has been covered before.

I tried to PM but that feature isn't working.
Bob Bancroft, you had a post in the AC section around Sept 3 2009 that you had some mower brackets that you thought were from a Ford 1710, if so I'm interested in them.

10% is all that has been avaible here for years and years and never a problem with it and I never herd of it being mixed anyplace except the refinery and E85 is not yet avaible here but it is recemoned in the owners manual for my 1998 Plymouth Voyager.