Employers and unions

LET'T TALK COLD hearted Employers and unions.
Man works all his life for a company and is a faithful union member.
Reports workplace harassment.Union says it easier to deal with one rather than try to tackle the bullies. They forced the employee to leave. Is this politics.

Would be interesting to hear the rest of the story from everybody else involved.

I agree. There's not nearly enough details to form any kind of opinion. Not all unions are the greatest though. I've heard lots of stories of slackers staying employed because they've been there a long time or know how to suck up to the right people higher up. Dave

There are two sides to every story. And you've told less than half of one side of the story.

Worked at UPS and was a teamster-unions are a joke!

Speaking of unions- a young woman was being interviewed regarding her finances- she was working part-time as a grocery checker, at minimum wage. She ran through the deducts from her paycheck, and they included $7.70 per week for union dues.

My question is: since you're working for minimum wage, how's that union thing workin' out for ya? Just think how much worse off you'd be without them going to bat for you. . .

She did have a good definition of minimum wage- its your boss telling you he'd like to pay you even less, but the guvment won't let him. . .

Any time an employer gives you a job he is doing YOU a favor and NOT the other way around. The only reason he has employees is to make HIM money. If you don't like it get your own job. (Nebraska Cowman, Self-employed, and NO I'm not hiring)

It means that your great union ain't worth skit--OR--you ain't telling us the whole story.

If he was a faithful union member I doubt he "worked" all that hard for the company.

Front page on the state-wide paper: Chief, firefighters divided. After reading through two petty union complaints we get to the real one: "Inability to present department and budget issues". Town manager says "requests made by the union were unacceptable to me and to the taxpayers of this community." It is apparent to me that the union is demanding that they get their raises and full staff levels despite the pain that the recession is inflicting on everyone in the community. I was a firefighter for thirty-five years.

I worked at union jobs all my career, in some cases the union and the company worked together to run the business, worked very well. I think unions have set the standards for worker compensation in our country, don't know if that will continue as unions are really declining, probably will go through a cycle like everything else.

there are always two sides..

Universal truths.
Companies only exist to make money. No company exist to make jobs. They only hire employees to perform work needed to make money. They do not love employees, they do not marry employees, the do not sleep with employees. Employees are only there to do work so the company can make money. Companies dont have a contract to keep you employed. When the need for you is gone, so are you. They should/will not pay you for doing nothing, or when you dont show up. When business increases they need more employees. When business slows down, they need less employees. These are universal economic truths that any college ecomonic course will teach you. If you foolish think that the company loves you or owes you something other than your pay for your time worked, you are delusional. The ideal of cradle to the grave companies is an illusion due to the amercian properity that exists no where else in the world. You are not married to the companie and when you are no longer needed, you should expect to be released. You are an "at will employee" meaning that you have no long term contract with that company stating you will always have a job. Most people have incorrect assumptions of what a company "owes" them. If you got your pay, you company "owes" you nothing.
Benifits are only added to attract better employees. They cost the company huges amounts of money. Benifits can be increased at any time and benifits can decrease at any time. Benifits are only offered if the company can afford them and needs/must offer them to obtain good employees. If benifits costs go crazy, your company will no longer be able to afford them or offer them. If your shocked that your benifits are decreasing, you have not been paying attention to the costs and have been mis-using your benifits. There are no free rides forever.

Companies have no morals, good or bad. Its the people working for them that make them good or bad. Companies have no feelings and only exist to make a profit or go out of business. Do not foolishly think otherwise.

Yes, and that is the main reason that no matter who we elect, not much changes in Washington.

Amen. I've had years in the cattle business I've had to go to the bank at the end of the year and get a loan to carry on. How many people would keep working for a Company if when the Company lost money they had to dig into their own pockets at the end of the year, (Or month or week)instead of receiving a paycheck? I didn't think so. Where's the "loyalty" there?

Im my own union!!!!!!!!

You could not be more correct about the cold and greedy attitude that companies have towards employees in today's world.
But let me tell you, it has not always been that way. Back when this Nation was the world leader, companies saw employees for what they truly are. They are the human factor that makes or breaks them for the long haul.
There is not single stronger component than an employee that feels a part of the company for which they work.
So sad that so many get rich quick pompous greedy people have found their way to be in charge of employees.
A dedicated employee will not only work harder and make a company more money, they will also help them save money. Today, with the negative company attitudes, employees have been trained to care less.

Before there were unions people (including children) worked six twelve hour days a week. Usually they worked in dangerous conditions (remember the women killed in the NY garment factory fire?). Mine operators were more concerned about the death of a mule in the mine than a miner. Miners were paid in company script that could only be used at the company owned store. You are right companies have no morals they only exist to make money. Morals had to be imposed and unions did that. Many of the work laws we take for granted, forty hour week, safer work conditions were fought for by unions who badgered lawmakers to pass these laws. Unions have gone to far in some cases and some union workers are slackers most that I see at work are not. They are skilled and diligent and proud of the work they turn out.

harsh but true

I'll just tell you,my stand on unions has softened considerably since the big union shop here closed. Not so much for worker protection,the government has taken that over entirely,but as far as union wages.
It amazes me that the talk radio crowd will tell you all day long that if you cut taxes and put another $5 a week in peoples paychecks,that money will circulate throughout the local economy and go through everybodys pockets.
Then those same people will tell you that union wages are a bad thing. Well,my question is,if $5 a week is good,why isn't an extra $5 an hour in the pockets of a certain percentage of the local population better?
I can tell you now,absoultely,having seen what has happened to this community without those high paying jobs,IT IS BETTER. It's not even debatable. And you have no CLUE how many pockets those union wages go through until they aren't there anymore.

I can't agree with that. An employee/employer relationship is mutually beneficial. The employer is doing himself a favor by hiring someone, since that employee's activity generates more income for the employer. That employee is obligated to create more income for the employer than it costs to employ him. If he doesn't fulfill that obligation, the employer is losing money and the employee should be terminated or his compensation should be reduced to a level where he is fulfilling his obligation.

WOW!!!

That was very well said!! I will have to remember some of that the next time some of the girls over on the New OT start cry'n bout evil corporations. There is one guy over there who would spit and sputter over that for a week!

Dave

I worked 41 years for the government without any union plus 2 years in the Army and there was no union in there either. The wage grade employees had a union and a wage grade supervisor told me he spent more time going to the union complaints than on his job supervising.
Hal

You can talk unions and employers until you're blue in the face, but there is one very serious problem in this country...and the rest of the world too for that matter. That problem is that many of the rich are just too rich and they can use their money, and that money alone, to make more money too easily. Money will and does buy anything and everything and anyone. We wonder where the money has gone from our country and other financially strapped countries of the world. Well, think about it....when your timeless consistent product has become multi-millionaires and billionaires, where do you suppose that money has come from? You can believe that this money came from sources somewhere, but it wasn't all dug up in precious minerals and metals or from miraculous accomplishments. Too much of it was and is being made because having money alone makes it too easy to obtain more money in our present world.

Limbaugh has been more a friend of the Country Club types than the working man anyways and this is from a guy who considers himself fairly conservative. Unions have gone overboard in the last generation but I doubt we would have seen the rise of the middle class in the 20th century without them.

I couldn't agree more. Building consumer good overseas might save the consumer a few bucks now and then,but when it comes to durable goods,like appliances and automobiles,products that are more likely to be built in high wage union shops,sending those jobs out of the country doesn't save the consumer one red cent. That outsourcing only improves company profit.
Case in point. The manufacturer that we lost was the worlds largest refigerator factory. They moved most of their manufacturing to Mexico to improve profits. Earlier this week,the wife bought a new refrigerator. Let me tell you,it wasn't cheap. Especially not any cheaper than when they were built here. Even IF everybody in this community HAD to pay $100 more for a new refrigerator,we would ALL be better off financially in the long run.

Without the people the company is a big empty building. The people that work for the company ARE the company.

Alright!Great Reply!
Unions do a fair job of getting workers decent pay.However lots of people in unions dont get high pay,they get alright pay.One thing is sure,none of us would get good pay if it wasnt for unions.Unions arent perfect,but they are a whole lot better than no unions.
Right wing radio is not a good source of information thats good for working people.Rich people,who drive a lot may like it,but I dont understand why working people would like somebody like Rush Limbaugh.
You are saying what a lot of people wont say.As long as the stuff going on doesnt affect them,such as farmers,then they can support the right wing nut cases all they want to.However if the right wing ever does get in charge,like they did for the last 30 years mostly,they leave a trail of devastation that working people cant stand.
Its all from the standpoint of whose ox is being gored.Once it affects you,then you dont like it so much.
Since I was dependent on fuel prices by driving a truck,I was hurt by the right wing long before the 3 or 4 dollar a gallon fuel.Over a million truckers lost their trucks when fuel went from 1 dollar a gallon to 1.50 a gallon.
It would sure help if people realized if its hurting some of us,it wont be long before its hurting everybody.Way too much of the time people will see others hurt by something,and try to make it worse on them,I guess it makes them feel good to backstab their fellow working countrymen.Thats got to stop.As workers we all need to stick together and throw the neocons out.They have so much power now that they are silly with the stuff they are doing.We need to dial it back to whatever oversights were o n things before Nixon started deregulating and maybe wwe would have a country again.That means huge corporations have to be broken up too.Teddy Roosevelt broke some big corporations and we had prosperity for decades.
These rich people are not going to spend any money at all if they can get away with it.Its all for them and nothing for the working man.Since they got all this extra money,they arent investing it back in the business.They are just hoarding it and even moving their companys to China.We need to figure out what to do about that,and do it,instead of half of the workers being brainwashed into being anti union.Besides that half of the workers voting for the neocons who are causing the problems to start with.This is just crazy.Never should have happened.

If the "workplace harassment" is NOT some sort of federally prohibited harassment, then the union may actually be in the right on this issue. If it's not related to gender, race, national origin, color [not always the same as race], or some other EEOC-regulated harassment, then maybe the union is correct to let the complainer go, rather than to get into a wizzin' contest over something where the union may have questionable grounds to discipline the alleged harassers.

I'm guessing there's a LOT more to the story than what you'v posted here so far.

I was in the Chemical Workers Union in the early 80's working at a granular fertilizer plant, and my top pay then was $6.80 an hour. Then in 2000 I went to work making frames for an automotive supplier, and as a UAW worker, I started at $11.00 an hour, and topped out 5 years later at $16.29 an hour. A lot of folks talk about how overpaid the union workers are, but I don't think $32,000 a year is a huge amount of money these days...not when some investment bankers are making several MILLION dollars a year, and they create NO product. As a UAW worker, we received an annual "profit sharing" that went into our 401(k) account [notice...I said "401(k), and NOT a company-sponsored pension plan]. So in order to make the company contribution to our profit sharing account larger, it was in our OWN SELF-INTEREST to do our best to help the company make maximum profits.

Yet there are still those who will cite the UAW as one of the unions that are "anti-company." I don't guess I'll ever understand why some folks think that way...but then, some folks never let facts get in the way of their opinions, which are always 100% correct, in their own eyes.

Companies are in business to make money but there are some good employers. Not every employee makes the company money though. A good employer that is making a profit will hire an extra employee(s)to take some work load off another employee(s)who is too busy. A bad employer will work fewer employees harder because they are too cheap/greedy to hire another employee to help with the workload. These same bad employers do tend to have high turn over rates though which costs them in the long run due to having to keep retraining new employee's. When the economy is bad some employers will really take advantage of employees. When the economy is booming, they have to treat their employee's a lot better if they want them to stay. Dave

Well....I can't say that I agree with ALL that you said,but the ripple effect of those good jobs in a community is tremendous. Folks around here always complained that those people made too much money. That nobody was worth that kind of money for "running a screw gun all day",but when those jobs left,a lot more jobs went with them. There were probably more jobs lost as a RESULT of that plant closing than the original 2700 jobs in the first place. When they announced the closure,it was estimated that the actual loss would be 8-10,000,and I believe it's been all of that. Even if you didn't work in a service industry effected by it,you're worse off because of the LOSS of those service businesses,whether it's a car dealer that closed,a hospital that cut services,what have you.
We always thought that my wife was in a safe profession as a nurse. But,with all of the job loss in the state,the left wing state government came up with its "no worker left behind" program. The state paid for workers to go back to school. Sounds noble doesn't it? But in a dying economy,what do you train them to do but to take the jobs of those who already HAVE those jobs. But,those new grads will do them for less pay just to have a job. And that's exactly what happened to nursing. At a time when the union jobs,with the good benefits,were leaving and causing less need for health care professionals locally,the state paid the Community College,just 2 miles from here,to turn out 2 classes of new nurses a year. So,what happens? They apply all over the community,hospitals and nursing homes,already hurting,run by the folks you call "evil big business" see the chance to cut costs and get rid of experienced help and hire cheaper labor.
So,your left wing,do gooder well intentioned government exacerbates the problem. Now nurses in the community have less income because of a government program.
This whole thing is just a cancer on society brought on after Perot WARNED of the giant sucking sound. But,Limbaugh teamed up with Clinton and Gore to push through NAFTA. This isn't one sided politically. There's plenty blame to go around.

You've got it exactly right, Fred. And that's what's wrong with the federal stimulus plans that are currently going on. My family ran a small business for over 50 years [until my dad died], and the ONLY time we hired any new help was when the demand for our products or services increased enough to create a NEED for a new employee. We NEVER hired anyone simply because our tax rate went down...because the way government operates, that tax might just go UP the next year. We NEVER hired anyone simply because loan interest rates went down, either. So from my perspective, NONE of what government is doing as a "stimulus" will have much effect on hiring...not until demand for USA-based products and services increases.

Buzzman, I think a lot of the perception of unions comes from the 70's and early 80's. I had many friends whose parents worked in the auto plants and rubber plants in Ohio. The stories they would tell of how hard they worked at getting out of work and how much piece work they did with an 85% scrap rate and protection from getting fired, with out a doubt, still affect my perception of unions. Many of those that did the bragging back then really regretted their actions after their jobs moved overseas. Things have probably changed for the better in some unions. I'm sure I'm not the only one with the same experience. Unfortunately, the saying perception is reality comes into play. It will take along time for unions to break out from under that cloud.

The looney left is just as dangerous as the looney right.There have been 2 other devastating things happen that went along with NAFTA.Bushs CAFTA put 20 million people in Central America out of work and a million people in the USA.Then all 20 million of the wetbacks came here because they couldnt get a job in Mexico.Since then they had GATT or something that put more people out of work.Besides that they ran off 8 million jobs.Bush devastated our economy,now we are in a depression.
I know just what you mean about the do gooders.I feel the same way.
I owned my own truck for more than half of the time I drove.Just like me,in the Detroit area,there were guys who had some kind of a machine in their garage behind their house and it would have a piece of metal going in and it would cut this metal and then maybe a thing that would slam down on it and bend it or punch a hole in it,and it would fill up a bin.I went to a bunch of these places a few times and picked up bins and hauled them to Kansas city where they went to Ford.I dont remember how many places I went to,maybe 10.I bet those guys arent in business now.If that stuff is still made in the USA its probably in Texas.Most likely its in China or Mexico.Plus whoever is making those parts is probably doing it for a whole lot less than the guys at Detroit were.
If GM were to close its doors,it would hurt Ford because they used some of the same parts,and put a million people out of work at least,and who knows how many more down the line.

I dont care which side is in charge,they need to be getting 20 million jobs back in this country.Im not even sure 20 million would be enough.If they cant do that,they need to be unemployed.Im not talking about by 2012,I mean they should have done this in 2009.
The right wing and the neocons have to go.The level of corporate welfare ios not sustainable by any country.Besides that,millions of people are unemployed,homeless,and even working and cant make a living on their wages.That has to stop.This nitpicking by the 2 sides has gone on way too long.Its time for both sides to set down and shut up and get to work fixing this mess.I hope the right never gets back in power again.Thats exactly how lousy they are,they never deserve to be in charge again.I was already mad at the looney left.They should never be in charge again.
Clinton and Gore were for Clinton and Gore.Like all politicians they would put crap on a piece of bread and eat it on TV to get a dollar,so what they are is no different than all the bad stuff the right did.Its disgusting,should not have happened,but we would have all been better off if Bush,either one of them,had never been President.A monkey could have been trained to wear a suit and fly around in a Airplane and would have done less damage than the looney right wing neocons did!The right wing is owned by Wall Street and the crooks also own the looney left.Why do you think you even hear from the looney right and looney left?I guess they work cheaper than the regular people like Perot and regular nnalert and nnalert.

I liken what's going on in the economy to a chemical imbalance in your body. The political platforms are like two doctors both prescribing radical new drugs,each interacting with the other and causing worse and worse side effects.Everything they do just throws something else out of whack.
But how do you wean the economy off all of the drugs and bring back it's original good health without killing the patient?
It's not anything that anybody who's in charge,or even on the radar right now,is gonna solve.
I don't want to sound like a defeatist,but the only way I can keep my sanity is to just try to stay as far away from it as I can and just live my own life for the best benefit of myself and my family. I don't know. Maybe that's when things will come back into balance. When everybody just calms down,goes home and takes care of their own lives.

I saw this happen to bust the union and get rid of paying pensions and health ins. Won't mention company that did this so it won't get Poofed. A division of a large company had 25-30 year union people getting close to retirement. The company sold that part of the business to another company that moves the plant to the East coast, which in a year they closed the east coast plant and moved it again. Then the first company sets up shop doing the same job as before, hiring the same people that lost their job, through a temp. service paying $9/hr and no benefits. BTY, the two companies mentioned are owned by a much larger company. According to our governor, it's all perfectly legal. Claim to have a name change by selling part of your business to yourself, move business, start up new shop with temps and out goes the union.

Has this happened in your town?

And I think you're right.

Define Union:
A labor Union is nothing more than united workers with a common goal for better working conditions.

We all are in some sort of labor Union, some are just larger than others with better working conditions!


All non-union workers need to thank there Union worker neighbor for getting the non-union worker a fair wage, benefits and decent working hours.

Before Unions, there was 7-day work weeks, no benefits, and very poor wages.

T_Bone

I,ve always been self-employed, but my Dad belonged to The UAW in order to work for a company. I think his bigest gripe about the union was the way they did their best to keep the company from fireing some lazy worthless jerk. My opinion is that no union should be able to control a majority of workers in an industry. I also don't think anyone should be forced to belong to a union in order to work for a company.

Don't worry with all the bellyaching and striking the Union so called workers do the company will probably wise up and move to China anyway.

You and I know this stuff.Young people dont.Now the problem is this.As people get older they turn nnalert.The Neocons took over the nnalert party.Nixon was a neocon.Since then they have devastated the USA.The nnalert didnt stop them.Its as if the nnalert watched as these neocons did this and then once they got away with something the nnalert left it in place.
All of them have a pretty good idea of whats wrong,and they all know what it would take to fix it,but they are going to play dumb and take their bribe.
Dont go insane over it,that wont help.Just dont fall for it any more.We need a lot better balance instead of the New World order crap.Thats a dead end and its not good for the country.We need people who will stand up for us instead of the crooks.
Not everybody is bad.There are good people.I wonder where the good guys are myself,but the good guys dont have as much power as they did since these big companies got so powerful.I dont know what the answer is going to be,I just know we arent going to have a country if we keep electing right wing puppets or left wing puppets.It will take a Teddy Roosevelt or maybe a Franklin Roosevelt first.

There are way too many misconceptions about unions out there. Yes, there are a few unions out there that protect worthless employees and hold too much power over the company they serve. I am a union carpenter, have been for 12 years. I worked for almost 6 years at one of the largest interior finish contractors in the country. At the end of everyday we turned in our footages, took stock of materials, and so forth. We were held accountable for what we got done and the quality of the product. If you didn't cut it, you were cut. The first year I worked for that company, they had their best year ever and profited over $100 million. So, the company made millions in profits, the workers got paid fair wages (about $40 an hour at that time with benefits included), and the clients got a premium quality product. All company/ worker relationships are symbiotic, unions merely bring the sides closer to the middle.

Maybe Teddy,but not Franklin. You keep refering to neocons. I don't even know what that is. All I know is,if the nnalert were still the same party that they were when John Kennedy was president,I'd probably be a nnalert,but given what the party platform is now and who is at the top,I don't think JFK would even be WELOME in todays Democratic party.

Nebraska Cow Man,

You are rite on the money,If all employees were a employer one time they would look at things alot different,I have been self employed many yrs and had employees also,I now have no employees,got real old babysitting so called adults.

Forty years on both sides tell me that if you got a good company, maybe you don't need a union; but if you got a bad company, you sure need a good union. Dave

Federal Reserve makes the money, the taxpayers pay for the inflation that results from the printing of new dollars, and therefore become enslaved to the corporate bankers.

Dude, you really don't have a clue.