Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
ot: need some info on infrared heaters ,good, bad,worth looking at, ,,unfinished basement
- Thread starter Anonymous-0
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1 Watt of of electrical power = 3.41 BTU's of heat. That's a basic physical principal that the real world hasn't found a way around.
Doesn't matter if it's from a $10 chinese heater from Waldoworld or a $300 "magic heater" from the non-electrified amish. Which will YOU choose as an INFORMED consumer?
(OR a victim of a SCAM?)
Doesn't matter if it's from a $10 chinese heater from Waldoworld or a $300 "magic heater" from the non-electrified amish. Which will YOU choose as an INFORMED consumer?
(OR a victim of a SCAM?)
I have installed many infrared Cove heaters.
They work well and if the building is well insulated they do not cost any more than LP to run depending on the price of both the LP or electricity.
My opinion is .10 per kilowatt electricity is equal to $1.50 per gallon LP.
Cove heaters are safe, clean and comfortable heat.
They work well and if the building is well insulated they do not cost any more than LP to run depending on the price of both the LP or electricity.
My opinion is .10 per kilowatt electricity is equal to $1.50 per gallon LP.
Cove heaters are safe, clean and comfortable heat.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
They are available with a built in thermostat and some with a timer. It depends what you want out of it.
Some Amish are using solar panels and batteries for lighting because the price of kerosene and Coleman fuel has increased so much.We have an Amish store near me and I noticed 4 deep cycle 12 volt batteries on display.The store has gas lights and skylights.Ive seen the Amish electric heater commercial. if you look close you will see that no one is doing any actual work, just faking it.The Amish settlement sells metal roofing at a reasonable price and they will install it.
If you actually pay ten cents per KWH, it would cost you $2.47 in electricity to equal one gallon of propane.
Next question is - is that what you realy pay, or is it what is printed on your bill? The price per KWH on the electric bill is usually meaningless, considering all the other fees added to it. What is your actual cost - i.e. divide the dollar charge by KWHs used.
For example, here in New York.
One month - 455 KWH priced at 12 cents per KWH, but actual bill is $80.68. That means the REAL cost per KWH is 18 cents per KWH, not 12.
Here - electricity to equal one gallon of propane costs $4.44. At the moment, propane costs $2.50.
Electricity to equal one gallon of diesel costs $5.71. Right now, diesel is $2.65 per gallon (home use - no highway tax).
Next question is - is that what you realy pay, or is it what is printed on your bill? The price per KWH on the electric bill is usually meaningless, considering all the other fees added to it. What is your actual cost - i.e. divide the dollar charge by KWHs used.
For example, here in New York.
One month - 455 KWH priced at 12 cents per KWH, but actual bill is $80.68. That means the REAL cost per KWH is 18 cents per KWH, not 12.
Here - electricity to equal one gallon of propane costs $4.44. At the moment, propane costs $2.50.
Electricity to equal one gallon of diesel costs $5.71. Right now, diesel is $2.65 per gallon (home use - no highway tax).
I love them, but I guess much depends on what you're using them for - and how they are fueled.
I doubt there is anywhere in the USA where electricity comes anywhere near as cheap as propane or NG. If so, I'd like to here where.
We've got several propane infrared heaters that do not require any vents attached. We started with the Procom "Blue Flame" models that are not infrared. Good for generally heating an entire room. We then switched to their infrarad models and they target nearby objects and heat instantly. They use less gas to heat nearby objects (like people). 28K BTU heater with thermostat costs around $190. Great deal, and even with our high propane prices - much cheaper then electricity. We have two big rooms with the 28K models, and also one bathroom with a 6K model.
Here in New York -
Electricty is priced at .12 per KWH but actually costs .18 per KWH.
Propane is currently $2.50 when bought bulk-rate.
By the way, there are some people on these forums that have "fits" whenever I mention these "non-vented" heaters. So let's get it sraight. They are 100% legal and require NO vent attached. But, they do need to be sized for the room they are used in, and natural fresh-air flow calculated. Long-story short - install by following directions. They all have automatic low-oxygen shut-offs and I've never had one trip. We also have CO detectors that have never gone off. Also never had any humidity problems. These heaters require no vent hookup, and no electricitiy. I've got some that are six years old now and never had a single problem yet. They make great no-power backup units or to be used in rooms where you only want certain areas warmed up.
I doubt there is anywhere in the USA where electricity comes anywhere near as cheap as propane or NG. If so, I'd like to here where.
We've got several propane infrared heaters that do not require any vents attached. We started with the Procom "Blue Flame" models that are not infrared. Good for generally heating an entire room. We then switched to their infrarad models and they target nearby objects and heat instantly. They use less gas to heat nearby objects (like people). 28K BTU heater with thermostat costs around $190. Great deal, and even with our high propane prices - much cheaper then electricity. We have two big rooms with the 28K models, and also one bathroom with a 6K model.
Here in New York -
Electricty is priced at .12 per KWH but actually costs .18 per KWH.
Propane is currently $2.50 when bought bulk-rate.
By the way, there are some people on these forums that have "fits" whenever I mention these "non-vented" heaters. So let's get it sraight. They are 100% legal and require NO vent attached. But, they do need to be sized for the room they are used in, and natural fresh-air flow calculated. Long-story short - install by following directions. They all have automatic low-oxygen shut-offs and I've never had one trip. We also have CO detectors that have never gone off. Also never had any humidity problems. These heaters require no vent hookup, and no electricitiy. I've got some that are six years old now and never had a single problem yet. They make great no-power backup units or to be used in rooms where you only want certain areas warmed up.
You are right. I misspoke. Should have said $2.50 lp not $1.50.
And yes my bill averages just under .10 per kwh for the farm. Less that that for the house but I get extra discounts for differant reasons.
All electric house, interruptable service, and time of day and volume discounts.
They don't sell gas also so they try to sell all the electric they can.
And yes my bill averages just under .10 per kwh for the farm. Less that that for the house but I get extra discounts for differant reasons.
All electric house, interruptable service, and time of day and volume discounts.
They don't sell gas also so they try to sell all the electric they can.
That's a good deal. Here in central NY, 18 cents is the standard "real" rate for homeowners. That is the lowest. For seasonal residences or workshops it's higher, and even higher yet for farms.
If I could buy power for 10 cents per KWH, I'd wouldn't have solar-electric.
If I could buy power for 10 cents per KWH, I'd wouldn't have solar-electric.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
As past posted have stated. A $30.00 1500W/5115btu electric heater makes the same heat as a $500.00 1500W/5115btu Amish rip off heater.
An infrared heater is best over a work bench for direct heat on your hands. Rather than trying to warm the air in the entire shop.
Even if electrical rates are high a portable heater can save a few bucks. If the primary house temp is kept cool. And a 1500W heater is used for a few hours here and there to warm a bathroom prior to a shower. Or warm the sitting area while watching tv.
An infrared heater is best over a work bench for direct heat on your hands. Rather than trying to warm the air in the entire shop.
Even if electrical rates are high a portable heater can save a few bucks. If the primary house temp is kept cool. And a 1500W heater is used for a few hours here and there to warm a bathroom prior to a shower. Or warm the sitting area while watching tv.
greenbeanman in Kansas
Well-known Member
I'm far from fond of infrared heaters.
They produce heat like a campfire on a cold winter evening--warm on one side only. I don't like a cold backside.
They produce heat like a campfire on a cold winter evening--warm on one side only. I don't like a cold backside.
The local electric Co-Op just ran an article on space heaters in general. The only way you will realize the savings they promote is if you turn your thermostat down to 55 degrees (bad idea #1) and block the doorways off with a heavy blanket (bad idea #2) in the room you are in and move the heater around with you from room to room as needed. (bad idea #3). Then every other room in your home is 55 degrees or less and you run the risk of water line freezes/breakage if you have a severe cold spell. Too much trouble for too little savings, in my opinion, but if that was the only way I could manage to pay my gas/electric bill in the winter, I suppose I would do what I had to do.
Ken Macfarlane
Well-known Member
I'll note, they are not legal in Canada or many other places in the world, they dump particulates, CO and water into the room.
If you have any other choice, I'd take it. Short exposure isn't bad but long term they are a health risk.
If you have any other choice, I'd take it. Short exposure isn't bad but long term they are a health risk.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
dahhhh: i could just turn the heat up and open the vent. renting a new house neaver needed air down their all summer so did'nt look for vents, 4 more months i hope she retires this time. (thats what i thought back in OR, VA,SC, LOL)dennis in NC>>>>>>>>>soooon
Yeah, well having a tight house with humans in it is unhealthy also as people emit deadly gasses - out of both ends (and sometimes more).
So, people are supposed to be concerned about what the State of California has to say?
OK. Then smoking pot is good for us - since it's somewhat legal in California.
And - we cannot have portable gas cans for general consumer use that are vented - or fit into the filler necks of modern cars.
Sorry, but many of the negative comments about non-vented propane heaters are rediculous fear-mongering.
There is not a shred of scientific evidence to be found that supports the existence of health hazards when non-vented gas heaters are installed and used as advised. There are more verified hazards associated with using vacuum cleaners, household cleaners, etc.
Last year, approx., 2500 people died in the USA due to CO poisoning. Out of that, 200 were from heating appliances. Out of that, 9 deaths were from propane heaters, and none were the non-vented models I've mentioned.
If your house is so tight that moisture is a concern from a 28K BTU heater, chances are you could not install the heater and abide by the given guidelines anyway.
Our house, I'm sure is a ticking time-bomb, since we actually have two propane cook stoves with - shudder - pilot lights burning ALL the time.
So, people are supposed to be concerned about what the State of California has to say?
OK. Then smoking pot is good for us - since it's somewhat legal in California.
And - we cannot have portable gas cans for general consumer use that are vented - or fit into the filler necks of modern cars.
Sorry, but many of the negative comments about non-vented propane heaters are rediculous fear-mongering.
There is not a shred of scientific evidence to be found that supports the existence of health hazards when non-vented gas heaters are installed and used as advised. There are more verified hazards associated with using vacuum cleaners, household cleaners, etc.
Last year, approx., 2500 people died in the USA due to CO poisoning. Out of that, 200 were from heating appliances. Out of that, 9 deaths were from propane heaters, and none were the non-vented models I've mentioned.
If your house is so tight that moisture is a concern from a 28K BTU heater, chances are you could not install the heater and abide by the given guidelines anyway.
Our house, I'm sure is a ticking time-bomb, since we actually have two propane cook stoves with - shudder - pilot lights burning ALL the time.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Our here in SWND our Electric Coperative charges 3.4 cents kwh for heating from Oct 1 through April 30. Yes, we have 2 meters. I think I paid about $2.20 last summer when we filled the propane tanks. Electricity wins here. I can't stand forced air heating so everything is radiant in our house, either under the floor, baseboard or coves that mount near the ceiling. I have 2 no vent propane heaters for when the power is out. Like you a I have several CO monitors, and never had a problem with the units.
showcrop
Well-known Member
Your rate must be awfully low if you can save only if you turn it down to 55 degrees. I save plenty by keeping it at sixty except for the room I'm in and using the elec. heater with the door OPEN. I don't carry it room to room because in the evenings we use multiple rooms so we kick it up to 68.
I guess you do NOT believe in the scientific law of "Conservation of Energy." Or, the First law of Thermodynamics?
With a non-vented heater, all the "exhaust" is used to heat the room and is not lost via a vent or chimney.
Does not matter if it's infrared, or not.
Depending on why someone is using it, you've got things backwards.
First of all - a heater is converting energy, from one state to another. Be it electric or propane, both are almost 100% efficient (if the propane is non-vented and no electric blower involved). If it IS vented,then efficiency goes way down. Note, I'm talking 100% efficiency only within this closed loop of existing fuel into heat, and am not figuring in how much energy is wasted making the electricity or propane.
Second - after that conversion is made, the way the heat travels is a factor - depending if you want an entire area generally warm, or wish to target certain areas. You cannot have a loss if all takes place within the room you are heating.
For somebody with a cold room who does not want to completely heat it up, infrared is more efficient since a few people can get warm next to it, without entire room heating. I.e., you are only using enough fuel to heat the people and nearby objects. Often you can run the heater at a lower setting and use less fuel per hour.
Both styles of heat are equally efficient for heating the entire room. There is no difference.
The heat does not magically disappear at a higher rate with either mode of heat transfer.
With a non-vented heater, all the "exhaust" is used to heat the room and is not lost via a vent or chimney.
Does not matter if it's infrared, or not.
Depending on why someone is using it, you've got things backwards.
First of all - a heater is converting energy, from one state to another. Be it electric or propane, both are almost 100% efficient (if the propane is non-vented and no electric blower involved). If it IS vented,then efficiency goes way down. Note, I'm talking 100% efficiency only within this closed loop of existing fuel into heat, and am not figuring in how much energy is wasted making the electricity or propane.
Second - after that conversion is made, the way the heat travels is a factor - depending if you want an entire area generally warm, or wish to target certain areas. You cannot have a loss if all takes place within the room you are heating.
For somebody with a cold room who does not want to completely heat it up, infrared is more efficient since a few people can get warm next to it, without entire room heating. I.e., you are only using enough fuel to heat the people and nearby objects. Often you can run the heater at a lower setting and use less fuel per hour.
Both styles of heat are equally efficient for heating the entire room. There is no difference.
The heat does not magically disappear at a higher rate with either mode of heat transfer.
Second - after that conversion is made, the way the heat travels is a factor - depending if you want an entire area generally warm, or wish to target certain areas. You cannot have a loss if all takes place within the room you are heating.
So your room never looses heat? My brother is an HVAC tech and the rule is the higher the exhaust temp the more inefficent. So how hot does the infared heater get? If it has to get say 200 degrees to heat a room to 70 then it would be more inefficent.
So your room never looses heat? My brother is an HVAC tech and the rule is the higher the exhaust temp the more inefficent. So how hot does the infared heater get? If it has to get say 200 degrees to heat a room to 70 then it would be more inefficent.
The amount of heat-loss in a room has nothing to do with the efficiency of a heater. You might include such facts if evaluating thermal efficiecy of an entire house, but not the heater.
In regard to exhaust temp??? Define exhaust. A fuel burning heater that is vented through the wall or a chimney, loses heat-energy to the out-side world - and that is usually called "exhaust." The more heat that leaves, the less that gets used to heat the room. If 10% of the heat goes up the chimney,and 90% goes to heat the room, it's going to be rated around 90% efficiency. If 30% goes up the chimney, and 70% heats the room, it's 70% efficient. The most fuel efficient heaters or furnaces that ARE hard-vented, tend to run very low "exhaust" temperatures. But, with such high efficiency also come reliability issues. So, many are built on compromise.
Note, the non-vented heaters don't exhaust heat directly to the outdoors. So, technically, they have no "exhaust." That's why they are often rated up around 99% effeciency.
The temperature a heater has to get in order to heat a room has nothing to do with anything - within the context of heater efficiency. It has to get warm enough to reach what ever temperature you call for. It has to have enough BTU output to compensate for heat-loss in that room - and that heat-loss has nothing to do with the efficiency of the heater. Ask your HVAC brother to explain it to you. To get a room warm, you have to pump in enough heat to compensate for heat that is leaving it.
In regard to exhaust temp??? Define exhaust. A fuel burning heater that is vented through the wall or a chimney, loses heat-energy to the out-side world - and that is usually called "exhaust." The more heat that leaves, the less that gets used to heat the room. If 10% of the heat goes up the chimney,and 90% goes to heat the room, it's going to be rated around 90% efficiency. If 30% goes up the chimney, and 70% heats the room, it's 70% efficient. The most fuel efficient heaters or furnaces that ARE hard-vented, tend to run very low "exhaust" temperatures. But, with such high efficiency also come reliability issues. So, many are built on compromise.
Note, the non-vented heaters don't exhaust heat directly to the outdoors. So, technically, they have no "exhaust." That's why they are often rated up around 99% effeciency.
The temperature a heater has to get in order to heat a room has nothing to do with anything - within the context of heater efficiency. It has to get warm enough to reach what ever temperature you call for. It has to have enough BTU output to compensate for heat-loss in that room - and that heat-loss has nothing to do with the efficiency of the heater. Ask your HVAC brother to explain it to you. To get a room warm, you have to pump in enough heat to compensate for heat that is leaving it.
What type of infared heaters are you talking about? The big ones you put on the ceiling or the ones that go on a small propane tank. I dont think they make none vented large ones that hang on the ceiling for say a shop. For one thing in you had a tight building your co2 would build up. Another thing about infared heaters on the ceiling is your feet are cold most of the time, plus if you roll under a piece of equipment it will be cold. They can ruin paint on a tractor if parked underneath, I have seen that. In floor heat is the way to go. Reason most people go with infared is how cheap initial purchase price is. I am building a 66x 60 shop in my machine shed that is 66x180 and as tight as that building is the infared heat would build up to much CO2.
plus it heats from the ground up, dries the floor quickly, and is nice surface to work on.
plus it heats from the ground up, dries the floor quickly, and is nice surface to work on.
Home residential rate is the lowest. Seasonsal residence is next. Farm rate is the highest. That's why farmers with common sense hook their barns up to their home service panel. Power is much cheaper that way.
Had a funny thing happen to a farmer-friend a few years back. He was a dairy farmer for years -and all the barn got it's power from his house for the best rate. Then he quit farming and started leasing his barn and fields. The young guy leased for a year and started complaining about the percentage of electric he had to pay. He was being charged a flat-fee based on previous useage over the years. Since there were no separate meters for house and barn, he was charged a fixed payment and complained he was getting ripped off. So, my friend let the guy have a separate farm-service and meter installed. His monthly bill doubled and boy was he even more angry -although he had been warned. And note - the farm rate is more but not actually double. The guy was getting off cheap at the beginning #1 because of the low household rate and #2 because his bill was estimated and figured low. Last I heard, New York has one of the highest electric rates in the company - especially the so-called "delivery charges." I don't expect it to improve, since the two major companies here owned by companies in Spain and England (NYSEG and National Grid).
Had a funny thing happen to a farmer-friend a few years back. He was a dairy farmer for years -and all the barn got it's power from his house for the best rate. Then he quit farming and started leasing his barn and fields. The young guy leased for a year and started complaining about the percentage of electric he had to pay. He was being charged a flat-fee based on previous useage over the years. Since there were no separate meters for house and barn, he was charged a fixed payment and complained he was getting ripped off. So, my friend let the guy have a separate farm-service and meter installed. His monthly bill doubled and boy was he even more angry -although he had been warned. And note - the farm rate is more but not actually double. The guy was getting off cheap at the beginning #1 because of the low household rate and #2 because his bill was estimated and figured low. Last I heard, New York has one of the highest electric rates in the company - especially the so-called "delivery charges." I don't expect it to improve, since the two major companies here owned by companies in Spain and England (NYSEG and National Grid).
I've already made it very clear exactly what heaters I'm talking about. Read through the posts if your question is not rhetorical. If you haven't bothered to read, then I assume you don't really care for the answer.
With the heaters I buy, the infrared option is an extra expense, not cheaper. In New York, non-vented 28,000 BTU propane heaters are allowed and common. Infrarad model is around $200, and non-infrared "Blue Flame" model is $170.
I can't speak for why all other buyers get them. I like infrared for heating objects instead of entire rooms. I used them in the barn for new-born goats, when air-temps are below zero. Impossible to heat the rooms, but the infrared DOES heat the young animals.
At home, we use them rooms normally kept cold. When we DO want to sit in them, we can turn on the infrared heater and get warm instantly, instead of waiting for the entire room to heat up.
At our Deere dealership, we installed big infrared heaters on the ceilings, pointed down on us. That enabled us to keep somewhat warm, even though the big shop doors were constantly being opened and closed when temps outside were below zero. They were oil-fired and used much less fuel overall, then the previous forced-hot-air system we had.
With the heaters I buy, the infrared option is an extra expense, not cheaper. In New York, non-vented 28,000 BTU propane heaters are allowed and common. Infrarad model is around $200, and non-infrared "Blue Flame" model is $170.
I can't speak for why all other buyers get them. I like infrared for heating objects instead of entire rooms. I used them in the barn for new-born goats, when air-temps are below zero. Impossible to heat the rooms, but the infrared DOES heat the young animals.
At home, we use them rooms normally kept cold. When we DO want to sit in them, we can turn on the infrared heater and get warm instantly, instead of waiting for the entire room to heat up.
At our Deere dealership, we installed big infrared heaters on the ceilings, pointed down on us. That enabled us to keep somewhat warm, even though the big shop doors were constantly being opened and closed when temps outside were below zero. They were oil-fired and used much less fuel overall, then the previous forced-hot-air system we had.
Billymarry
New User
Different kind of Infrared Heaters are market. Be careful! I know One bad side about infrared, as far as it being a heating device, is that the IR rays do not travel that far. Often the distance is not enough so the need for multiple devices in a room may be needed.
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