Code question for NYs

I was looking at my friends fire damage to his house and was shocked that the double wall pipe was so close to wood framing. Does anyone know the clerance for code for it? I think there was less than 2 inches in some spots. The house was built in 1986. There was also electrical wires in with the chimminy pipe, in the same chase. What a cob. I feel bad for my friend and his family as he is so safe with cleaning the chimminy, had fire extinusghers all over, but he never knew how this pipe was put in. Now he wonders if it was a electrical fire.

If it is type B metal vent for gas it needs 1 inch clearance from combustables. DH

The U.L. fire resistance directory back then should have had tested wall types for that application, most of those wood framed chimneys were covered with gypsum wall board sheathing, (multi layers of same?) possibly fire retardant lumber/cold formed metal framing, all to achieve a specific rating, 1 hr, 1hr or maybe a 3hr rating. It would be reasonable to speculate that the NYS code, local code, etc. would allow something U.L. rated for this kind of building occupancy classification, as designed and shown on drawings submitted for building permit approval by whomever the presiding authority was at the time. Architect/Engineer would have to had shown something specific, because the wall type is kind of unique to what it encases, a flue pipe. The other thing is, what was designed, and what was built. These were " value engineering" designs, as they are much quicker to construct and less costly, condo developers, like the Michaels Group, locally, used this design in most of what they built then, as did many home builders.

I would have to speculate that electrical circuits would not be allowed, 1st due to the wall penetrations and other factors, though a shaft/chase/chimney like this would be a great place to hide a riser, if allowed you would think it would have called for steel conduit and encasement. Just some thoughts about it, I could be way off just the same, but my knowledge comes from commercial construction.

U.L. Fire Resistance Directory is a great resource for designers, it provides tested assemblies, thousands of them. More than likely the designer chose a wall type from it.

Most code calls for 2" clearance/ or as per Mfg. instructions. Most chimney mfgs. also provided standoff brackets so a chimney would not deflect during heating and cooling cycles. Was there regular code inspections during construction, including an inclosed chase, seperate section in code. Dual fuel heating appliances are questionable also. Did wood/oil boiler share a common flu? What used to be OK isn't today, and many people disreguard the permit process.

When I lived in NY, we had a house built in 1984, new for us. It had the same contruction (we used it for a wood stove in the basement, it was built by the builder).

If I recall correctly it required 4" clearence with the insulated chimney pipe. Another interesting factor was the chimney was open at the bottom, therefore allowing cool air to rise along side the pipe and exit from the top all around the pipe. (chimney was on the outside of the house, sorta attached to the outside wall)

Worked very well, never had a issue.

L.

It is a combonation wood/oil furnance with a insulated double wall pipe. The fire started on the second floor about 5 feet up from the floor 3 feet down from the celing, and spread into the attic. I guess Dale the building inspector looked at it today also, as with insurance people. I just cant believe you can run double wall pipe from the basement threw a wood structrue house with only a 2" clearence from any wood. Sounds like an accident waiting to happen to me. He also only uses the wood side of the furnance, dosent ever use oil, so that really dosent matter.

Jay: some codes in NY are even zero clearence.. it depends on two things for the most part and one more for good measure. 1) type of "double" wall piping used, 2) local codes and the other is good sense about fire safety. If it is the good Canadian manufactured and UL approved double wall piping it can be Zero clearenced at maximum... most double wall piping does not require alot of air space because it needs to stay warm in order to work at it's maximum design. If it's let cool to much creasote and cold spots (which become burn out hot spots) wear on the inner sheath and eventually burn through. As warm air rises it carrys the bad things with it, if it slows down accumulations begin and continue to wear on bends and joints, ect. Code wise Double wall is used mostly/approved while triple wall operates too cool and consequently is dangerous and for the most part, outlawed. Common sense alone would suggest that wires in the same chase is unsafe and illegal, given that the reflection of heat alone would deteriate any covering/sheathing of the conductors thus inhibiting electron flow given wire gauge specs. Even with good Double wall piping and good/efficent use of the wood fuel cleaning is necessary and inspections are still a must do periodical. I hope your friend has some good luck come his way given the misfortune.

I assume you know that building codes are not laws. They are merely "suggestions." So, enforcement varies by county and each town. A local town code enforcement officer can bend/interpret the code to be more relaxed, or more restrictive.

I doubt any officer anywhere would allow less then 2" clearance from any stainless steel, solid-fuel pipe - since that is the industry standard.

Note also that pipe certified in Canada greatly exceeds burn-out limits for USA pipe. I.e., Canadian pipe is aafer and I assume would be treated that way, IF the inspector knew the difference.

I have metal pipe here in Central NY and in the Adirondacks. I have Canadian pipe at both places. It doesn't cost any more then the best USA pipe, but isn't as easy to buy on this side of the border.

Canada: ULC S-629 Standard requires the chimney to withstand three 30 minute chimney fires at 2100°F. Listing #195-7110, 7113, 7156
Can be run full time at 1200 degrees F

USA: UL-103HT for the United States Along with many other tests the UL 103HT Standard requires the chimney to withstand three 10 minute chimney fires at 2100°F. Listing #50195-C7-703403 Rated for 1000 degrees F continuous

INSULATED DOUBLE WALL
metalbestos insulated pipe

I doubt if Canadian chimney pipe can withstand a 30 min fire,its as thin as a coke can.
I sure as heck would not want to put it to the test.
I can't figger why they don't make it from better material.
i have more confidence in 6,7 or 8 inch auger tubing.

So, you think the Canadian government tests are all fake? Or, are just Canadian tests fake and USA tests OK? Also, keep in mind with most, it's just one company making two versions of pipe for either side of the border. Not separate Canadian and USA companies. The better stuff is legally required in Canada.
I bought my Canadian pipe from a USA company.

I guess you are entitled to beleive whatever
you like. Have you ever actually seen any Canadian pipe? I doubt it. If so, tell me what brand and version. I have. I have some CF Sentinnel 10" pipe installed twenty feel from where I'm sitting. One nice feature is the pipe has real, sold-fill, fire-proof insulation, and not just dead-air space.

I've contructed many solid, heavy gauge steel chimneys in the past. Some with steel well casing. They do not burn near as clean as isulated mulit-wall pipes unless you find a way to add insulation yourself. So, I don't regard them as safter, by any measure.

Yep, I know all about useing metal liners. My father in law put square tube stock metal down his chimminy, I dont even know how they got it up there, but that thing loads up bad with creosote. Its almost closed right off when I go up there to clean it.