Business with friends and neighbors

I just read 135fan's post below about clearing snow. Based on some of the replies it's obvious alot of people don't know the difference between being neighborly or friends/friendly and simply doing business. For anyone in a skilled trade or in this case someone with equipment to do various jobs, the distinction has to be made whether people like it, or understand it, or not.
Being a mechanic I often do work on equipment for friends and neighbors, and more times than not they get charged for the work I do. Granted there's a job here and there that I do cheap or free but the majority of time they pay just like any other customer does. I have yet to have one of them complain because like me they understand that I get paid for practicing my trade just as they do. Based on some of the repies to 135fan some do not understand that concept but for me to do otherwise would be cutting my own throat. I mean if I work for customer A and make x amount, that money goes to take care of my family and cover my bills each month. If I take time I could be working for a 'customer' to work for a friend, and do it for free, and then my friend gets to use the repaired equipment to help pay their bills, what do I get out of it to cover mine??? Ultimately it does nothing but cost me and 'take food out of my families mouths'.
I guess what I am getting at is that regardless of who you work for your time is valuable and a TRUE friend or neighbor would understand that. If they don't understand and expect for you to take care of their problems for free than they are not a TRUE friend or neighbor and do not deserve your help. Actually by expecting it they are disrespecting you and doing nothing but taking advantage of your kindness for their own personal gain.
This sounds like the case for 135fan and his situation only it's compounded by the shear numbers of potential 'friends and neighbors' wanting free stuff done. Granted right now it's only one, but think about what will happen when others in the neighborhood feel like he's doing them wrong by not charging Ms Y and ALL of them decide they want it done for free. In the end it comes down to one thing. They can pay him x amount to do their spaces like they would anyone else that wasn't a friend or neighbor, or they can pay some 'stranger' twice as much for the same service....
So for the nay sayers telling him he's wrong for wanting to get paid for getting out in the cold, using his time, his machine, his fuel, etc, etc and expecting to get paid for work he does, over and above what he has a written contract to do.....There is a difference between being friends and neighbors and DOING BUSINESS...If you don't understand it or can't figure it out, your in danger eventually become old Ms Y, the bad neighbor someone else is on here writing about.....

I agree.

Although sometimes doing a favor is a good thing, in the end, we all have bills to pay and mouths to feed.

Sounds to me that 135 (Dave) is doing what he does to make extra money to pay bills or have spending cash or just make ends meet.. Nothing wrong with that.. At least he's trying to make money and not just living on "the draw" like so many seem to these days.

There is the neighborly thing too, but don't sound like his neighbors want to be "neighborly", sounds like they're just lazy, or wanting something for nothing..


Brad

I would have to disagree to a point. My friends and family do stuff for each other for free all the time I don't think we are taking food out of anyone's mouth. Each has a different skill to offer and the people I hang around with understand that when they need help just call and when I need help I do the same.

I understand that there are those out there that are in it for numero uno and I don't help them, paid or otherwise.

Nate

Ok, I wasn't going to, but I'm going to chime in again.. Ya, I know, already??

I work a "full time" job.. during the "farming season" I average 70 hours a week.. This time of year, if we get 10 hours a week we're doing good, so I end up laid off.

I CAN collect unemployment, but I try not to if I can help it. I save some money during the working weeks, but still not enough to last all winter, but combined with unemployment I usually get by.

Sometimes (like in January, while paying for the Christmas season) money is tight, so I do "odd work" to make extra money.. be it working on a car in the barn, some construction work, whatever..

Usually I do it for friends and family, and I too don't want to charge them, but what good does it help me to trade say a brake job on their car/truck for say furnace work, should my furnace happen to go down? If my furnace was broken at that second, then it would be a win-win, but doing the work on the chance that it could happen?

I guess the point is, if you work a full-time job, and don't have to worry about making ends meet, then it's no big deal to do favors.. But, if it's charge to plow snow, fix a car, build a fence or starve.. guess what?? I'm charging..

I believe that was the point on the original story, and on this story.. No one wants to starve, and we're all just doing what it takes to make ends meet in troubled times, and if you're a good friend/neighbor, and I say I'm sorry but I got to charge you XX because I'm just trying to survive and cover my fuel and wear and tear, then they should understand and say ok, fair enough.. BUT on the flipside, when the friend/neighbor says it back, you can't whine or cry about it.

It sounded to me, from the original story, that Dave had plowed the neighbor's snow in the past for nothing, and didn't receive any neighborly favor back, so I think charging is a must.

Brad

I been down that road.
Turned out mostly like a one way street,as long as i fixed things free or for cheap for neighbors or friends they kept on coming,when i needed some help in return,they either had no time or charged custom rates.

I agree too.
If my neighbor treats me right all the time I will be there to help when needed.

I know first hand of the capabilities to pay bills on a fixed income and any extra helps.

But I wouldn't let any one stranded because of snowfall or have a driveway blocked in case of need for an emergency vehicle. because of the inability to pay.

Most of my neighbors are retired. and are getting health issues that don't allow them to be outside in cold weather. but they lived their lives here and at one time were good productive people.

I don't mind that in the warmer months that I get some type of Homemade pie -- Cost $8.00 in store
Or Homemade bread a couple times a month(at almost $3.00 a loaf or a homemade from scratch Chocolate Mayonnaise Cake --- (indecently priceless) for a couple total hours of work in the winter. when their heating bill are so high.

Some will ask Why Live there ? I say because most will live their life out where they were born and raised. They Knew their Parents made it through the hard times, and was good enough for them.

I grew up during the time when neighbors were neighbors and worked together. Threshing grain silo filling, blocking up wood to split. I do not know if anyone kept track of time. I do know if you did do your share you may not be in the ring. There was a lot of farm work done by the threshing ring. People cooperated for everyones good. Maybe you pitched bundles, maybe you furnished a team and wagon and hauled bundles. Does not work today. To many people do not know what a neighbor is.
girib

From my experience there is also a difference between "country" neighbors and "city" neighbors.

I don't mind giveing more than I get sometimes,but there comes a time when people start expecting you to do things.I don't weld as a business,but I have all the equipment.People will call or stop buy and say can you weld this for me.I don't mind doing it but it would be nice if they would bring a case of beer or some rod,instead of saying it sure is hot in your shop do have something to drink while we wait.

(quoted from post at 11:02:39 12/16/10) My friends and family do stuff for each other for free all the time I don't think we are taking food out of anyone's mouth. Each has a different skill to offer and the people I hang around with understand that when they need help just call and when I need help I do the same.

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But you ARE receiving payment, in the form of service of equal or greater value.

It sounds to me like these people are just expecting work with NOTHING in return.

I mean heck, bake the man a pie or something, ya know?

"instead of saying it sure is hot in your shop do have something to drink while we wait..."


Thats funny!

I'm always getting quizzed for computer work/help.

My rough rule of thumb is - if it is for a friend who is nice and they aren't making money using their computers/network/whatever, I'll generally do it for free, when I can work it in on my schedule.

If they are using it in their business or moneymaking hobby or whatever, I will charge them going rate...


Howard

When I was about 15 years old my dad had a threshing machine and tractor, and we did the threshing for ourselves, two neighbours and my uncle. Dad kept track of the number of bushels threshed at each farm and charged acordingly. He also kept track of the numbers of hours spent at each farm. At the end of the season they would all get together and dad was paid for the threshing, and the farmers paid each other for any extra time spent at each others farm. They always got along, and never had any disagreements that I know of. They had something similar going for cutting fire wood. They worked together because a lot of farming in those days was labour intensive and a lot of things couldn't be done alone.

You nailed it Brad! These people are mad at me because I park in my stall and when the other daughters come over, it's too tight of a fit for them. They just park illegally in the laneway instead, often blocking me in. We've had to knock on their door to ask them to move but now they won't even answer the door. Dave

Thanks Wayne for your post! You know exactly what I'm talking about. The difference between a good friend or neighbor and a bad one is that the good ones don't expect it for free and would return the favor if you needed it in a heartbeat. These neighbors don't fit in that category. The mom plays her music fairly loud and we can here it plain as day. The problem is sometimes it's very early in the morning. The GF saw her outside one time and asked her to please turn it down. The response, "It's just gospel music, why would that bother you"? We even banged on the wall one time cause it was so loud. She didn't turn it down but banged back on the wall. When a black man came to look at a piano we were giving away(8 pm), he mistakenly knocked on their window instead of ours. A couple days later the mom next door is telling the GF that a bad man came to attack her and he had a knife. That's what we're dealing with. Dave

I didn't read the original thread, so not sure what this is about - I'll go looking for it.

It's neighborly & friendly to help a person out once. We got a heck of a blast of snow here a week ago, followed by terrible cold. I'l blow the neighbor out once to help them out if I happen to be there.

If they expect me to bundle up every single snowfall & take care of their snow for free - who the heck thinks they are a friend or 'neighborly'? Sheez. They are lazy users.

All depends on what one gets back. Neighbors don't do nothing for me, then it gets kinda hard to do something for them for free.

--->Paul

The thread is 3 or 4 posts down......."lousy neighors". Seems the same folks get taken advantage of........time after time.

For his neighbors wanting 135 to do it for free is like expecting a grocery store owner to give food away free. I plow my neighbors out in the winter but they repay me and then some,But I'm not trying to make a living out of it, just a fun thing to do, I did notice when I had a plow on my truck I had a LOT more good friend

My son is a mechanic and has his own shop/parts store in partnership with another man. People are always telling me how fortunate I am to be able to get free auto repair and even free parts.

I always point out that I love my son and I pay him at least the going rate for any repair work that he does for me. I also pay full price for all parts. In return, he looks out for my vehicles, advises me on needed repairs, fixes problem "B" while he's working on nearby problem "A", and so on. He has enough shysters to deal with without adding his dad to the list.

I have an aquaintance (won't call him a friend) who has a nephew who is a mechanic. I've seen nephew work on this guy's car all afternoon, and the guy will bring him a half dozen roasting ears or a little sack of tomatoes to show his appreciation. Nephew is lucky to get paid for the parts. What a jerk! It takes two - a shyster and a shystee - for this to happen. Either one can stop it at any time.

My son charges this guy extra so he won't have to deal with him, and also to make up for being shysted by him in the past.

If you like reading the scriptures, the third chapter of the book of Malachi, near the end of the chapter, tells how to treat the laborer.

Paul

I run a small repair shop. When I do work for family or friends, they get parts at my cost, which is less than what they can buy them for. I damn sure get paid for my time!

When I need something done, I get treated the same way. Works out well.

My neighbors will do a 5 dollar favor that i didn't ask for and want a 200 dollar favor in return.Two of them are mad at me now and won't talk to me.

I don't do business With Family, Friends or Neighbors all three will get you in trouble. I eather do for them or not at all. Will not go into why.

I have a business and a hobby restoring tractors.
When people help me in the business part I pay them the going rate even when they don"t wan"t anything but I make money with my business.But when people help me for my restoration they do it for free,but I also help them.
Bottom line when you do work for someone who makes money with what you work on just charge him.And if they don"t like it then get them to go elsewhere.

Years ago a friend and I shared an apartment in Charlotte and had neighbors downstairs (two young guys like me and my buddy) who were on a different work schedule than either of us. As a result they'd come in late when we were trying to sleep and crank up their music. We finally had enough one night so my buddy, who was a big electronics ut, decided to do something about it. He took his tewo speaker towers that were about 5 feet tall and laid them down flat on the floor. Then he found the loudest, bassiest, rockenist tape he could find and plugged it in and turned it on wide open. Needless to say the whole floor began to vibrate. Didn't take long for the guys downstairs to come up to see what was going on. From that point on we were all good buddies and never had any more problems. I guess they figured out they were Sooooooo outgunned in the noise department, why bother....LOL

My favorite approach is to borrow a small ampont of money from the rich looking neighbors, and lend the same amount to the poor neighbors. Nobody calls me anymore!

Business is business.If you can move snow and get paid for it or anything else,nothing wrong with that.I dont know why it is but it doesnt seem to make any difference what you do,some people want you to work for nothing.Then have the nerve to get mad when you charge them.I dont think it matters if its a fair price,they wanted it free.No matter what business it is,they sure wont want to pay you as much as you think its worth.This is so bad that after a while,even being fair,they will take stuff somewhere else.Its because their check is probably going to bounce if they think you are a freind.If they dont know you its because they think they can throw a tantrum and get the price reduced or play some scam and get it free.
Think about what you do yourself.Say you want to buy a pickup.You see one for 2500 dollars advertised.You go and offer say 1500 and end up buying it for 2000.Business is not actually like that.For some reason there are people who think that business should be that way too.Even big companies do the same thing.Say you had a contract with Wal Mart to change oil in their trucks.You charge them 50 dollars an hour labor.The first thing they are going to try and do is get you lower on your labor.
If you ever do something for nothing,then it wont take the cheapskates long to expect you to work for them for nothing if they find out.
One thing is for sure,any of them will let you work for free.If you do you will be stuck working for free until you go broke.
Charging one person one price and somebody else a different price is another one that will cause you grief.If you change your price you better put a sign up and dont let them talk you into working for less.You would be better off to turn it away than do it too cheap,or at the same price you did it 5 years ago or whatever scam they want to use.

My brothers-in-law, nephews, and I have an understanding. Kinship is kinship and business is business. If we do work for each other that we would normally get paid for by someone off the street, we charge for it. It probably all evens out over time and there are no misunderstandings.

I take care of mom and dad before he died. They took care of me. Other than that, if you want my services then you pay my price. If you don't like my price and the quality of my service, go find someone else. If I have a contract it comes first because it feeds me. Any other will come first come first serve. I do work often on the barter system but the exchange of services is agreed upon before any work is done. The worst thing you can do is say" We will settle up later". Get everything agreed upon first. If there are variables like parts cost etc. make sure that it's included in the original agreement. You cant plan for every contingency, but you need to remove as many of the points of potential conflict as you can. LarryT

I am pretty lucky. All my neighbors are great. Most are older and retired. At 50 I am the young punk around here. They seldom ask for anything and when they do they are always willing to pay. I mow pastures for them in the summer, do minor plumbing, electrical, replace the occasional rotted post, or whatever, and they all pay what I ask. I try to treat them right. If I leave for a day or two they will drive over twice a day just to look around and make sure things are OK. If animals need fed it is taken care of and I do the same for them when they leave. In the winter I will push snow if needed so they can get out if need be and that is always good for a home made something from the kitchen. Good enough for me. We all leave keys under the seat to vehicles and now and then you get home and there is a note on the door that someone borrowed it because theirs was broke down and they will be right back. It comes back with at least as much fuel as was in it when it left.
A few years ago we had a horrible snow with a lot of wind and one neighbor could not get his old tractor to start. I was at my goat dairy plowing snow with mine and he called and asked if he could use mine to clear his long drive. I told him no problem, but I was not going to finish up until about midnight and I would need it back in early in the A.M. to plow the dairy again so I could milk. I drove the tractor home from the dairy and hit the sack. My wife woke me up at 2 A.M. to tell me that she heard the tractor start up and head out the drive. I told her that Ed needed it to clear his drive and he will be back soon. I got up the next morning and fired up the tractor and noticed that the tank was full. Ed filed it from his barrel I guess. I headed off to the dairy to push more snow before milking. When I got there it was already done. He worked all night on a tractor with no cab and all it cost me was the loan of the tractor to clear his drive, two gallons of fresh milk, and two lbs. of cheese out of the cooler. I tried to give him some cash and he refused.
I have great neighbors.

Greg

Well I see the original post got poofed. It appears that people who run or have their own business seem better able to understand the situation. I wasn't trying to rip people off and tried to give a very fair price for clearing their parking stalls. There weren't too many that wanted it done but the option was there if they did. Maybe it's a guy thing? The married guys should ask their wifes if they would pay $15 to have their parking stall cleared if they were home alone? It's -18C and all they have is a show shovel. I don't think too many women would mind paying $15 for that. The county charges you if you want them to do your driveway. You purchase a bunch of flags in advance and put them out after a snow storm. Is what I'm doing any different? There's still no excuse for the neighbor to pile their snow in my stall. Dave

(quoted from post at 02:09:56 12/17/10) Well I see the original post got poofed. It appears that people who run or have their own business seem better able to understand the situation. I wasn't trying to rip people off and tried to give a very fair price for clearing their parking stalls. There weren't too many that wanted it done but the option was there if they did. Maybe it's a guy thing? The married guys should ask their wifes if they would pay $15 to have their parking stall cleared if they were home alone? It's -18C and all they have is a show shovel. I don't think too many women would mind paying $15 for that. The county charges you if you want them to do your driveway. You purchase a bunch of flags in advance and put them out after a snow storm. Is what I'm doing any different? There's still no excuse for the neighbor to pile their snow in my stall. Dave

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Your confusing the responses in your other thread. No one said you shouldn't be able to make money. Heck no one even said you shouldn't charge for it. The objection that most of us voiced was that you feel a deep primal need to whine whenever something isn't perfectly fair or to your advantage. Life isn't perfect and sometimes you will get that short end of the stick. Man up, deal with it and move on.

You have spent more time arguing on this forum that you are right about every situation in which you post than it would take you to move that extra snow all winter.

Minnesotian NORWEGIAN dictionary:

freeloader- machine that is out in bad weather plowing snow for free.. OOfDa

I'm not confusing anything. Yes people said I should move the snow for free and called me names because I wouldn't. Actually a lot of people agreed the neighbors were out of line. Wayne knows excatly what I'm talking about. He started a second thread trying to explain it to people like you that couldn't understand. If you went out of your way to help your neighbors in the past and then they shovelled their snow onto your lot blocking you in, you'd be OK with that? I don't think so. The neighbors are mad because I park in my spot and it's a tight fit for them. They've even had the neighbor on the other side of them park in their spot with an SUV, just so I couldn't park there. Only 2 smaller vehicles can fit. Dave