Step-daughter wants to make a bedroom and bath in her 1940's house. She has 100 amp service. Electric range and 15amp 230 volt AC unit outside. She has gas water heater, dryer and furnace. Her heating man wants to install an electric furnace with a heat pump. Finished attic about 500 square feet...bedroom and bathroom. House located in twin cites of MN..... 1 1/2 story house with kneewalls. He called me with what he wants..60 amp 15KW electric heater. It has 3 banks of 5kw. Telling me it will never need all 3 on. Also he needs 25 amp for the heat pump. I want him to go with a gas furnace with a small AC unit. The 100 amp should should handle it. If he goes with electric I'll need a 200 amp service. I broke my ankle (plate with screws) maked it tough to help her. How much natural gas will a small furnace require for line??? Or will we have problems with not enough gas for everything else. The whole basement is finished and the old furnace isn't big enough for the attic and the ducwork is too small. Thanks Joe
- Thread starter mnjoe
- Start date
I don't know what the gas/electric rates are in your area, but in NWMO, propane is cheaper then electricity, and if she isn't in a rural area, I would think natural gas would be available and cheaper than propane. Some utility companies will give you a reduced rate if you are using electricity for heat, but the amount and time the discount applies varies widely. As far as a heat pump goes, I would think the outside temperature would be low enough to make the extra cost a bad investment, unless you are talking a ground source heat pump, which is expensive to install. Standard heat pumps loose efficiency rapidly below 35 degrees or so, and are not worth operating at all below 30 degrees. I would suggest putting a pen to paper and see what works out best in her particular situation, and don't forget to calculate how long it will take to recoup the costs of the service panel upgrade and extra heat pump cost. If this contractor won't listen to your concerns, find another one with references.
Chris (WA)
Member
Joe , Need to know the BTU demand of the existing equipment, how it is located on the supply line, where that line will be tapped for the new furnace, the sizes of all the supply lines, the size of the supply and the demand of the new furnace.
Then it can be calculated if there is enough gas supply to run a new furnace in addition to the current demand.
Gas is often a cheaper fuel supply but if piping needs to be replaced it can be cheaper to go electric. It does sound like the electrical service is small for the addition too.
Then it can be calculated if there is enough gas supply to run a new furnace in addition to the current demand.
Gas is often a cheaper fuel supply but if piping needs to be replaced it can be cheaper to go electric. It does sound like the electrical service is small for the addition too.
evilboweivel
Member
I agree with you gas furnace with a/c unit
Ron
Ron
M-MAN
Well-known Member
- Location
- Bostic, NC
She needs another heating man cause this one is a bit shy in the smarts department. Heat pumps and 100 amp services don't mix.
You best advice for the gas line will be the gas company. T's and regulator's are their ballpark so call them first.
You best advice for the gas line will be the gas company. T's and regulator's are their ballpark so call them first.
The perfect belly mower f
New User
Do the gas. Electric might seem cheaper to install, (probably not as it will require new service entrance, and distribution system). The electric bills will be far more than current expenses. Air to air systems in cold climates (I live in St. Cloud) are not cost effective. If it were a ground source heat pump I would probably say go for it, but not an air to air. Jim
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
I'm with you on the ankle with a plate and screws. 3-1/2 years with mine. Crunch, pop, click, snap, stab,jolt etc. Feels creepy too washing the ankle in the shower feeling the metal plate and screw heads.
100amp service will run a heat pump just fine.
The whole concept here is cost over the next 5-15 years. Not just the utility cost per month.
There was furnace airflow problems with the old furnace at home and my sister's being the largest and farther from the furnace with just one air duct.
Conversely the knob that installed the furnace installed three ducts into the kitchen immediately above the furnace along with the thermostat.
Needless to say my sister froze and the kitchen was too hot.
I installed a larger fan motor on the furnace and belted the rpms up to max amps for the motor. Then dampered the airflow to the kitchen. Everybody was much happier.
Definitely boost airflow. And electric heaters in the addition with programmable stats.
Insulation, good windows and sealing air leaks beats super sizing heating and cooling capacity.
100amp service will run a heat pump just fine.
The whole concept here is cost over the next 5-15 years. Not just the utility cost per month.
There was furnace airflow problems with the old furnace at home and my sister's being the largest and farther from the furnace with just one air duct.
Conversely the knob that installed the furnace installed three ducts into the kitchen immediately above the furnace along with the thermostat.
Needless to say my sister froze and the kitchen was too hot.
I installed a larger fan motor on the furnace and belted the rpms up to max amps for the motor. Then dampered the airflow to the kitchen. Everybody was much happier.
Definitely boost airflow. And electric heaters in the addition with programmable stats.
Insulation, good windows and sealing air leaks beats super sizing heating and cooling capacity.
Janicholson
Well-known Member
I was foolish and typed in a response in the name box. Jim
If the "mn" in your handle stands for Minnesota, I'd go with the gas. While 100 amps would handle a heat pump, a heat pump will not heat your house in a Minnesota winter, not by a long shot. Would need duct heaters, and therefore a 200 amp service. As noted below, heat pumps fall way off in efficiency below about 20 degrees, and from there on down, you'll be depending on the duct heaters, and savings associated with heat pump will be lost.
Heat pumps are best between at 40 degrees and up, ideal for pacific northwest.
Heat pumps are best between at 40 degrees and up, ideal for pacific northwest.
DH in Carolina
Member
You can install a heat pump on a 100 amp service with no problem. But you need to use a fossle fuel kit which causes the heat pump to switch over to the gas furance at around 35 degrees. The heat pump will not use any more electricity than a straight cooling unit will. You are using the gas furance instead of electric for your back up heat. Also you can't run a furnace and 15 kw heat on a 60 amp breaker. DH
Nobody has that kind of arrangement around here, because hydropower electricity (at 4.55 cents per KW) is much cheaper than gas. But in the midwest, it would make sense. You have a lot of spring and fall weather that is moderate, and the heat pump alone would handle it. And you get cooling in the summer. Sounds like a good way to go.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
natural gas is hard to beat but even peak rate electricity of 18 cents figures to approx $3.30 gallon of LP if an unvented LP heater is used. Of course if a furnace is used 10-30% of the LP you paid for goes straight out the stack.
Plus it takes a long time to payback on fuel savings for a few electric heaters vs. an entire LP furnace system. Add tank rental, chimney service if mid efficiency. Those high efficiency gas furnaces around here are having some long term reliability problems.
I"m 140 miles south of Minneapolis, and have a
heat pump, with gas furnace backup. The Heat
pump is on 220 volts..40 amp breaker.. been ok
for 20 years. We really can"t afford to run the
heat pump in cold weather though..it runs
constantly and really puts a strain on the budget
we use it for air conditioning in the summer. If it ever fails we"ll go back to a straight air
conditioner. On "Time of use rate" our electric
is 6-1/2 cents per killowatt, but natural gas
is very inexpensive here.
heat pump, with gas furnace backup. The Heat
pump is on 220 volts..40 amp breaker.. been ok
for 20 years. We really can"t afford to run the
heat pump in cold weather though..it runs
constantly and really puts a strain on the budget
we use it for air conditioning in the summer. If it ever fails we"ll go back to a straight air
conditioner. On "Time of use rate" our electric
is 6-1/2 cents per killowatt, but natural gas
is very inexpensive here.
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