- Thread starter Scott-AL
- Start date
from what I know (it aint a whole lot) gassers aer easier to start in colder weather ,but they have more maintenence to keep them happy,tune ups,plugs, points,wires,coil condencer,...A Well maintained diesel will not need as much minor maintenance,but if you need to fix an injector pump it will cost some$$$ if you know your way aroung a gas engine you will be able to keep a tractor happy diesels are a bit harder to work on,but you dont need t foolaround with as much stuff
Bob Bancroft
Well-known Member
- Location
- Aurora NY
I have small antique gas tractors for occasional light work around the farm. One has a Woods belly mower. One has a side mounted sickle bar mower. One runs grain augers, and when it's not it has an aftermarket 3 point hitch which pulls a little Bush Hog or a York rake. They'll start anytime. Very simple, trouble free, and low maintenance, at a fraction of the cost of a modern compact diesel.
Anything that's going to be working long, hard hours in the field or on the road is diesel. Just can't beat the efficiency and longevity of a good diesel engine.
Anything that's going to be working long, hard hours in the field or on the road is diesel. Just can't beat the efficiency and longevity of a good diesel engine.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Depends. There is talk of going back to direct injection gas engines on new small equipment instead of the tiny diesels.
Just depends on when you use them and what you use them for. I feed cattle,and both of my loader tractors and the one on the silage cart are gas. A neighbor is on me all the time about it,says a diesel will run cheaper and all you have to do is plug them in. I tell him no thanks,I don't have to plug them in and can go right out in the morning and go to work. The price of gas and diesel are about the same and only running them long enough to load and feed silage and drop three or four round bales in,I'm not using enough to make a whole lot of difference.
How many "mechanics" can repair an injection pump, own a diesel timing light, own and use an injector tester, etc.? Not many.
On the other hand, how many can figure out carburetors, ignition distributors, magnetos, etc. More, I assume.
Thus gas engines are usually easier and cheaper to repair.
Diesel is 15-20% more efficient. And, even when diesel is priced 20-30 cents more per gallon, it still has more energy per dollar then gasoline.
Diesel starts harder in cold weather
Diesel fuel gels in cold temps
Diesel fuel can last for 20 years
Few mechanics know how to work on diesel components.
Gas is easier to work on.
Gas can go bad in a year or two.
Older gas engines are often true tractor engines and built just as rugged as many diesels.
Newer gas engines used in tractors are lighter-duty car engines mostly. Often Mazda or Misubishi if water-cooled.
Gas engines have components that most mechanics can figure out on their own.
On the other hand, how many can figure out carburetors, ignition distributors, magnetos, etc. More, I assume.
Thus gas engines are usually easier and cheaper to repair.
Diesel is 15-20% more efficient. And, even when diesel is priced 20-30 cents more per gallon, it still has more energy per dollar then gasoline.
Diesel starts harder in cold weather
Diesel fuel gels in cold temps
Diesel fuel can last for 20 years
Few mechanics know how to work on diesel components.
Gas is easier to work on.
Gas can go bad in a year or two.
Older gas engines are often true tractor engines and built just as rugged as many diesels.
Newer gas engines used in tractors are lighter-duty car engines mostly. Often Mazda or Misubishi if water-cooled.
Gas engines have components that most mechanics can figure out on their own.
Not true about torque. Diesels in general tend to have better torque curves because they tend to have longer strokes.
Many tractors use exactly the same bore and stroke in their gas and diesel versions. With those, the torque curve and max torque is exactly the same with gas and diesel. The gas engines though, will have more horsepower then the diesels (if not turbocharged).
Many tractors use exactly the same bore and stroke in their gas and diesel versions. With those, the torque curve and max torque is exactly the same with gas and diesel. The gas engines though, will have more horsepower then the diesels (if not turbocharged).
One other thing I forget to mention. Gas engines have more horsepower then diesels when they are the same size, bore and stroke. Only exception is if the diesel is turbocharged.
Gas engines also have the same torque as long as bore and stroke are the same, and sometimes even if the gas is shorter on stroke.
That's why when farm tractors are sold by horsepower level, the diesel versions have bigger engines to keep up with the smaller gas engines.
Here is one example of many.
John Deere - gas versus diesel used in 1020 farm tractors, 350B crawlers, etc.
Gas is 152 c.i.
3.8" bore by 4.33" stroke
42 SAE horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1300 RPM
Diesel is 164 c.i.
4.02" bore by 4.33" stroke
42 SAE horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1300 RPM
Deere gas and diesel in 300 and 1020 wheel tractors, 350 crawlers, etc.:
Gas is 135 c.i.
3.87" bore by 3.87" stroke
43 flywheel horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM
Diesel is 152 c.i.
3.87" bore by 4.3" stroke
43 flywheel horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM
Gas engines also have the same torque as long as bore and stroke are the same, and sometimes even if the gas is shorter on stroke.
That's why when farm tractors are sold by horsepower level, the diesel versions have bigger engines to keep up with the smaller gas engines.
Here is one example of many.
John Deere - gas versus diesel used in 1020 farm tractors, 350B crawlers, etc.
Gas is 152 c.i.
3.8" bore by 4.33" stroke
42 SAE horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1300 RPM
Diesel is 164 c.i.
4.02" bore by 4.33" stroke
42 SAE horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1300 RPM
Deere gas and diesel in 300 and 1020 wheel tractors, 350 crawlers, etc.:
Gas is 135 c.i.
3.87" bore by 3.87" stroke
43 flywheel horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM
Diesel is 152 c.i.
3.87" bore by 4.3" stroke
43 flywheel horsepower
110 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM
Matt in TN
Member
I like a gas burner for feeding hay, stretching fences, and times when I'm starting and stopping the engine often. For jobs like plowing, bush hogging, and cutting hay, I prefer the diesel.
I used to have several gas tractors that I used everyday. I finally got tired of the constant maintenance. They would usually start but they rarely ran "right". Always having to play with the choke and then fouled spark plugs etc. I have replaced every "work" tractor with a diesel. Yes I have to plug them in to start but most of the gas tractor around here have to be plugged in the winter too. PLUS they run right when they do start. I will fix the diesel fuel system every ten thousand hours over the slow death from gas repairs. I don"t know if it is the newer fuel but I have came to hate gas motors. It seems that the fuel will go stale in just a short time. I even use fuel conditioners. I am even looking at a diesel lawn mower. I will do a jig when the gas barrel goes down the road.
The best starting tractor I now own is a JD 5210. I bought it used out of Arkansas it had been on a catfish air pump. I never thought about it not having a block heater. I used it the first winter and it would start down to 5 degrees without anything. I have installed a block heater. I also had some Duetz tractors in the late 1980s that started very well. Several neighbors have Kobota tractor and they say they start well.
The best starting tractor I now own is a JD 5210. I bought it used out of Arkansas it had been on a catfish air pump. I never thought about it not having a block heater. I used it the first winter and it would start down to 5 degrees without anything. I have installed a block heater. I also had some Duetz tractors in the late 1980s that started very well. Several neighbors have Kobota tractor and they say they start well.
old
Well-known Member
- Location
- Camdenton Missouri
Both have there good and bad points. The common man can pretty much do the common stuff to a gas tractor but on a diesel it takes higher $$ tools but needed less often. In the winter a gas engine is more likely to start then a diesel. Gallon for gallon a diesel will do more work on less fuel. Cost to repair a gas over a diesel is a lot less but a diesel is less likely to need work done to it as often. One can pretty much keep a gas engine running with just a few common tools but if/when a diesel needs work the common man will not have the tools needed to do the work and that work will cot big $$
I don't know of any. Post the specs if you do. I've never come across a diesel that made as much horse or torque as a gas engine with same bore and stroke (unless turbocharged).
A few good examples.
Isuzu took their gas engines and converted them to diesel, so some are the exact same bore and stroke. Chevy used some in S10s, Chevettes, LUVs.
Chevy/Isuzu 1.8 liter gas (110 cubic inches) four-cylinder, 80 hp at 4800 rpm and 95
lb./ft. torque at 3000 rpm
3.31" bore x 3.23" stroke.
Same when converted to diesel.
Chevy/Isuzu 1.8 liter diesel (110 cubic inches) four-cylinder, 51 hp at 5000 rpm and 77
lb./ft. torque at 2000 rpm
3.31" bore x 3.23" stroke
Now, take a Isuzu and compare to a Chevy designed gas engine with similar bore, stroke, size.
GM/Isuzu 2.2 liter (139 c.i.) diesel - 62 horse at 4200 RPM and 96 lb. ft. torque at 2200 RPM
3.4" bore by 3.62" stroke
Chevy Vega 2.2 liter gas engine, (140 c.i.) - 90 horse at 4600 RPM, 115 lbs. torque at 2400
RPM, 3.5” bore by 3.62” stroke
Now, compare a straight-six diesel Dodge used in 1/2 ton pickups to a similar sized straight-six gas engine Chevy used.
Dodge 1/2 ton pickup diesel, 3.9 liter, 243 cubic inches, in-line six cylinder, 100 horse at
3700 RPM, 165 lbs. torque at 2200 RPM. 3.62” bore by 3.94” stroke.
Chevy gas engine, 4 liter, 250 cubic inches, in-line six cylinder, 145 horse at 4200 RPM,
230 lbs. torque at 1600 RPM, 3.9” bore by 4.5” stroke.
Now, compare John Deere 1010 diesel and 2010 gas -both exactly same size, bore and stroke.
John Deere 1010 diesel engine, 2.4 liter, 145 cubic inches, 40 flywheel horsepower at
2500 RPM, 95 lbs.torque at 1500 RPM, 3.62” bore by 3.5” stroke.
John Deere 2010 gas engine, 2.4 liter, 145 cubic inches, 50 flywheel horsepower at 2500
RPM, 114 lbs.torque at 1500 RPM, 3.62” bore by 3.5” stroke
A few good examples.
Isuzu took their gas engines and converted them to diesel, so some are the exact same bore and stroke. Chevy used some in S10s, Chevettes, LUVs.
Chevy/Isuzu 1.8 liter gas (110 cubic inches) four-cylinder, 80 hp at 4800 rpm and 95
lb./ft. torque at 3000 rpm
3.31" bore x 3.23" stroke.
Same when converted to diesel.
Chevy/Isuzu 1.8 liter diesel (110 cubic inches) four-cylinder, 51 hp at 5000 rpm and 77
lb./ft. torque at 2000 rpm
3.31" bore x 3.23" stroke
Now, take a Isuzu and compare to a Chevy designed gas engine with similar bore, stroke, size.
GM/Isuzu 2.2 liter (139 c.i.) diesel - 62 horse at 4200 RPM and 96 lb. ft. torque at 2200 RPM
3.4" bore by 3.62" stroke
Chevy Vega 2.2 liter gas engine, (140 c.i.) - 90 horse at 4600 RPM, 115 lbs. torque at 2400
RPM, 3.5” bore by 3.62” stroke
Now, compare a straight-six diesel Dodge used in 1/2 ton pickups to a similar sized straight-six gas engine Chevy used.
Dodge 1/2 ton pickup diesel, 3.9 liter, 243 cubic inches, in-line six cylinder, 100 horse at
3700 RPM, 165 lbs. torque at 2200 RPM. 3.62” bore by 3.94” stroke.
Chevy gas engine, 4 liter, 250 cubic inches, in-line six cylinder, 145 horse at 4200 RPM,
230 lbs. torque at 1600 RPM, 3.9” bore by 4.5” stroke.
Now, compare John Deere 1010 diesel and 2010 gas -both exactly same size, bore and stroke.
John Deere 1010 diesel engine, 2.4 liter, 145 cubic inches, 40 flywheel horsepower at
2500 RPM, 95 lbs.torque at 1500 RPM, 3.62” bore by 3.5” stroke.
John Deere 2010 gas engine, 2.4 liter, 145 cubic inches, 50 flywheel horsepower at 2500
RPM, 114 lbs.torque at 1500 RPM, 3.62” bore by 3.5” stroke
No, I dont have any specs JD. I thought I had read that somewere. I do know equipment sold with diesel engines is always less HP than a gasser. Example. Exmark sells lawn mowers with a 21hp Kubota diesel option. That thing would woup my 27 hp kohler gas. Why isent the Kubota a 27 horse?? Also my 7.3 powerstroke, (I dont know the ci of it, maybe you do) has 575 ftlbs torque at 1675 rpm. As far as = bore and stroke, maybe I just dont know the outputs enough. I just thought a diesel of smalles ci's had more power and torque that a larger gas engine. J
Yes, but the 7.3 Powerstroke is turbocharged (7.3 liters is 445 c.i.). My comments have only been applied to gas engines versus non-turbo diesels.
The original 7.3 diesel that International Harvester made for Ford trucks was built from an existing IH gas truck engine platform. The IH 7.3 liter MV446 gas engine. Used in many school buses.
MV446 IH gas engine has 235 horse at 3600 RPM and 385 lbs. torque at 2600 RPM.
Ford-IH 7.3 non-turbo diesel has 185 horse at 3000 RPM and 360 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM.
Another older truck gas engine IH made with similar size is the 461. It has 226 horse at 3600 RPM and 420 lbs. torque at 1600 RPM.
I've got an early 1994 Ford F250 with the last turbo 7.3 made, before it became a direct-injected Powerstroke 7.3. 190 horse at 3000 RPM and 395 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM.
The original 7.3 diesel that International Harvester made for Ford trucks was built from an existing IH gas truck engine platform. The IH 7.3 liter MV446 gas engine. Used in many school buses.
MV446 IH gas engine has 235 horse at 3600 RPM and 385 lbs. torque at 2600 RPM.
Ford-IH 7.3 non-turbo diesel has 185 horse at 3000 RPM and 360 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM.
Another older truck gas engine IH made with similar size is the 461. It has 226 horse at 3600 RPM and 420 lbs. torque at 1600 RPM.
I've got an early 1994 Ford F250 with the last turbo 7.3 made, before it became a direct-injected Powerstroke 7.3. 190 horse at 3000 RPM and 395 lbs. torque at 1400 RPM.
The HP hours per gallon numbers are always better for a diesel. Check the Nebraska numbers and you'll see what I mean. The engineers will tell you that gasoline provides more btu value. That's because their tests are based on weight. We don't buy fuel by the pound though. We buy it by the gallon. Diesel fuel, no matter which type, is always heavier than gasoline when both are purchased by the gallon. Thus, more molecules of fuel in a gallon of diesel than in a gallon of gasoline. A pound of gasoline will give more power (btus)than a pound of diesel fuel. Soo, it depends on whether you live in the world of reality or the world of theory.
Heat Houser
Member
I don't know, the current gas engine technoloy is pretty darned good. When was the last time your car sputtered and spit when it was 30 below? Carbs, yes, not too good since you were relying on air flow to suck gas out of the bowl. New gas engines today, fuel injection, so the computer can adjust the amount of gas to meet the conditions.
I guess I dident realise you had said "turbo" But I can tell you this, for me, turbo, or non turbo diesel, I'll take the diesel any day of the week over any gas motor. Hands down. Unless your talking a 50s diesel or something, (other post) I plug in my 2 tractors and never had a problem starting them in our kind of upstate NY winters. One has glow plugs, the other only has a lower rad hose heater, and starts fine. Maybe your GM 6.2 diesels dont start good, but I know nothing about them.J
I guess I dident realise you had said "turbo" But I can tell you this, for me, turbo, or non turbo diesel, I'll take the diesel any day of the week over any gas motor. Hands down. Unless your talking a 50s diesel or something, (other post) I plug in my 2 tractors and never had a problem starting them in our kind of upstate NY winters. One has glow plugs, the other only has a lower rad hose heater, and starts fine. Maybe your GM 6.2 diesels dont start good, but I know nothing about them.J
I guess I dident realise you had said "turbo" But I can tell you this, for me, turbo, or non turbo diesel, I'll take the diesel any day of the week over any gas motor. Hands down. Unless your talking a 50s diesel or something, (other post) I plug in my 2 tractors and never had a problem starting them in our kind of upstate NY winters. One has glow plugs, the other only has a lower rad hose heater, and starts fine. Maybe your GM 6.2 diesels dont start good, but I know nothing about them.J
Heres one for you. The JD 4020 came with a 362 cid engine, around 80 hp. My Dodge has a 59 Cummins, Roughly the same size. IF I removed the turbo from my truck, you are saying that my hp will go from 320hp to under 80 or so hp????? I have had a none turbo 5.9 Cummins on a dyno by the way.......
Mark - IN.
Well-known Member
Really? I hadn't heard that. That kind of stuff gets my blood to boiling. Makes me want to put a huge dome over DC that no one can get in or out of, cut their phone service, and paint it black so we never have to look at them again. EPA that says plowing is a breathing hazard to everyone living nearby, and that giving someone an apple off of your tree could kill them. Gets my blood boiling.
Good night, my evening just got shot.
Mark
Good night, my evening just got shot.
Mark
What is your point?? Deere engine is NOT equal stroke to the Cummins 5.9, it is 1/2 an inch shorter. Also, Deere engine is rated 88 PTO horsepower, not net or SAE horsepower like cars and trucks get rated with. There is not a non-turbo Cummins 5.9 on the planet that tests anywhere near 320 horsepower on a PTO. You are comparing "apples to oranges" and doing a bad job of it.
You say you have a dyno? Fine. Post some actual test specs of a non-turbo Cummins 5.9 on a PTO - tested the way farm-tractors so we can compare equal-meaning specifications.
You say you have a dyno? Fine. Post some actual test specs of a non-turbo Cummins 5.9 on a PTO - tested the way farm-tractors so we can compare equal-meaning specifications.
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
I only have one tractor and it's a diesel. Push the glowplug button for 5 or 6 seconds and push the starter button. Starts about the first revolution. Tank of fuel lasts a long time.
Runout of fuel (I's a procrastinator) and get air in the line, glowplug/s go bad............different story.
Dave
Runout of fuel (I's a procrastinator) and get air in the line, glowplug/s go bad............different story.
Dave
No sane engineer is going to claim gasoline has more BTUs then diesel, per gallon or by volume. If you go by weight, they are basically equal.
Gas weighs around 6.1 lbs. per gallon and has 114,000 BTUS of energy.
Diesel weighs around 7.1 lbs. per gallon with 130,000 BTUs of energy.
As to Nebraska Tests, there ARE a many gas tractors that beat diesels.
A few poorly rated diesels . .
Case 610 diesel tested at 9.1 HHG.
Steiger Panther diesel tested at 9.3 HHG
Ford FW30 diesel tested at 9.6 HHG
John Deere 1010 diesel tested at 11.9 HHG
Farmal 656 Hydro diesel tested at 12.3 HHG
Some better rated gas tractors . .
Oliver 1800 gas - 13.1 HHG
Allis Chalmers D10 gas - 13 HHG
Farmal 706 gas - 12.8 HG
Case 841 gas - 12.7 HHG
Gas weighs around 6.1 lbs. per gallon and has 114,000 BTUS of energy.
Diesel weighs around 7.1 lbs. per gallon with 130,000 BTUs of energy.
As to Nebraska Tests, there ARE a many gas tractors that beat diesels.
A few poorly rated diesels . .
Case 610 diesel tested at 9.1 HHG.
Steiger Panther diesel tested at 9.3 HHG
Ford FW30 diesel tested at 9.6 HHG
John Deere 1010 diesel tested at 11.9 HHG
Farmal 656 Hydro diesel tested at 12.3 HHG
Some better rated gas tractors . .
Oliver 1800 gas - 13.1 HHG
Allis Chalmers D10 gas - 13 HHG
Farmal 706 gas - 12.8 HG
Case 841 gas - 12.7 HHG
MarkB_MI
Well-known Member
- Location
- Motown USA
There's a lot of discussion of the fact that diesels are generally more efficient than gas engines, but not much about why this is the case. Diesels derive their high efficiency from their high compression ratios. If you could run a spark ignition engine at 14:1 compression, it would be pretty efficient. Which is one reason why automakers are starting to make direct-injection gas engines: they can achieve much higher compression ratios than earlier fuel-injection designs. Most gasoline tractors have modest compression ratios; typically less than 9:1, making equivalent diesel tractors much more efficient.
Diesels also derive a small efficiency gain because they don't have to throttle their intake air, eliminating throttling losses.
jdemaris mentioned the fact that when you compare fuel consumption by weight rather than volume, gas engines don't look so bad. But for much of the history of diesel farm tractors, gasoline was more expensive than diesel fuel. Farmers couldn't care less about the Btu content of their fuel, but they definitely care what it costs.
So efficiency was the main thing that killed gas tractors. But maintenance played a role, too. Most diesel engines go to major overhaul with little or no maintenance other than oil and filter changes.
Diesels also derive a small efficiency gain because they don't have to throttle their intake air, eliminating throttling losses.
jdemaris mentioned the fact that when you compare fuel consumption by weight rather than volume, gas engines don't look so bad. But for much of the history of diesel farm tractors, gasoline was more expensive than diesel fuel. Farmers couldn't care less about the Btu content of their fuel, but they definitely care what it costs.
So efficiency was the main thing that killed gas tractors. But maintenance played a role, too. Most diesel engines go to major overhaul with little or no maintenance other than oil and filter changes.
buickanddeere
Well-known Member
Lets not forget real world applications. A gas vs diesel being flogged at 95% of rated power, at rated on an irrigation pump. Is different than a 55HP diesel putting around doing odd job idling or making 10-30HP at any given time.
If you check the pounds of fuel per HP per of a diesel running at 1/2 load.All of a sudden a gasser starts looking much better in that same application.
Lets not forget a light to moderately loaded diesel doesn't warm up to run clean, efficient and without sooting/wet stacking.
If you check the pounds of fuel per HP per of a diesel running at 1/2 load.All of a sudden a gasser starts looking much better in that same application.
Lets not forget a light to moderately loaded diesel doesn't warm up to run clean, efficient and without sooting/wet stacking.
YEah, actually if you do take the turbo off the Cummins it's going to crash to about 100 brake hp, roughly the same as the Deere. There is some variance there as there always is due to specific fueling... but generally they will be about the same. You need to keep in mind that the Cummins at 325 hp is pretty well at the TOP end of what's sensible for that engine design if you want it held together... not to mention that you're comparing two very different technologies in terms of engine control and injection.
Rod
Rod
Cummins 5.9 would not even rate that high on a Nebraska PTO test.
There are many farm tractors with non-turbo diesels similar in size to the 5.9 Cummins that were tested. There is no magic inside a Cummins 5.9 that sets it apart from other HD engines.
The Deere gas engine, 362 cubic inches tested at a max PTO horsepower of 95.6. That with a "square" engine having equal bore and stroke.
It beats all the tested non-turbo diesels in that size range.
A few similar sized, not-turbo diesels in tractors, similar to the 360 c.i.- 5.9 liter Cummins (4" bore by 4.7" stroke):
IH 786 with a 358 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke, in-line six-cylinder. 80 max PTO horsepower.
IH 1045 with a 358 c.i. diesel. 3.87" by 5" stroke. 92 max PTO horsepower.
MF 2640 with 354 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke. 90 Max PTO horsepower.
MF 3505 with 354 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke. 87 max PTO horsepower.
MF 1080 with 381 c.i. diesel, 4.5" bore by 5" stroke. 81 max PTO horsepower.
Note the difference though, once the turbo is added . .
Hesston 140-90T with Fiat diesel - 358 c.i. 4" bore by 4.5" stroke WITH turbo. 123 max PTO horsepower.
There are many farm tractors with non-turbo diesels similar in size to the 5.9 Cummins that were tested. There is no magic inside a Cummins 5.9 that sets it apart from other HD engines.
The Deere gas engine, 362 cubic inches tested at a max PTO horsepower of 95.6. That with a "square" engine having equal bore and stroke.
It beats all the tested non-turbo diesels in that size range.
A few similar sized, not-turbo diesels in tractors, similar to the 360 c.i.- 5.9 liter Cummins (4" bore by 4.7" stroke):
IH 786 with a 358 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke, in-line six-cylinder. 80 max PTO horsepower.
IH 1045 with a 358 c.i. diesel. 3.87" by 5" stroke. 92 max PTO horsepower.
MF 2640 with 354 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke. 90 Max PTO horsepower.
MF 3505 with 354 c.i. diesel. 3.87" bore by 5" stroke. 87 max PTO horsepower.
MF 1080 with 381 c.i. diesel, 4.5" bore by 5" stroke. 81 max PTO horsepower.
Note the difference though, once the turbo is added . .
Hesston 140-90T with Fiat diesel - 358 c.i. 4" bore by 4.5" stroke WITH turbo. 123 max PTO horsepower.
One problem with gas engines in farm tractors is they need low compression ratios since many if not most farmers used cheap, low octane fuel.
Oliver was one of the few that took risks by offering a high compression gas engine in a farm tractor. That tractor still holds the world record for gas-engine efficiency in a farm tractor. It beats many diesels. In fact, it beat 57 diesel farm tractors tested at Nebraska.
Oliver 1800, Nebraska Test # 766 in 1960 (record holder). 265 c.i. engine with 3.75" bore by 4" stroke. 8.5 to 1 compression ratio and 92 octane gasoline. Tested making 74 horsepower with a fuel efficiency rating of 13.1 horsepower hours per gallon.
Oliver 1850, Nebraska Test # 874 in 1964. 265 c.i. engine with 3.75" bore by 4" stroke. 8.5 to 1 compression ratio and tested with 92 octane gasoline. Tested making 66.7 horsepower with a fuel efficiency rating of 11.7 horsepower hours per gallon.
Oliver was one of the few that took risks by offering a high compression gas engine in a farm tractor. That tractor still holds the world record for gas-engine efficiency in a farm tractor. It beats many diesels. In fact, it beat 57 diesel farm tractors tested at Nebraska.
Oliver 1800, Nebraska Test # 766 in 1960 (record holder). 265 c.i. engine with 3.75" bore by 4" stroke. 8.5 to 1 compression ratio and 92 octane gasoline. Tested making 74 horsepower with a fuel efficiency rating of 13.1 horsepower hours per gallon.
Oliver 1850, Nebraska Test # 874 in 1964. 265 c.i. engine with 3.75" bore by 4" stroke. 8.5 to 1 compression ratio and tested with 92 octane gasoline. Tested making 66.7 horsepower with a fuel efficiency rating of 11.7 horsepower hours per gallon.
All of Olivers Diesels made better HP hrs per gallon numbers than that although Oliver gassers were notoriously stingy on fuel. So, you picked the most fuel efficient gasoline engined tractor ever tested at Nebraska and comparted it to what? The most inefficient diesel ever tested? As I recall, one of the most fuel efficient tractors ever tested was a John Deere model R. Something approaching 18 HP hr/gal. No gasser has even come close.
Yes, I compared the most fuel efficient gas tractor tested to the least efficient diesels - and I made that VERY clear. Somebody earlier claimed that there were NO gas tractors that beat ANY diesels at Nebraska Testing. I posted to show that statement to be incorrect.
I wonder why people who say they like diesels seem to get upset over known facts about them. If a person is a die-hard diesel fan (like I am), seems you ought to be comfortable with the pros and the cons.
The most fuel efficient diesel tested at Nebraska - only up to 1984 - is not the Deere R. #1 is the Japanese Yanmar with a Deere brand-name stuck on it - the 1650 turbo-diesel. Tested at 18.6 HHG. #2 is the Deere 720 diesel. #3 is the MF-150. #4 is the MF-230.
John Deere R diesel took 17th place.
World record holder right now (last I checked) is a New Holland powered tractor.
Buhler Versatile 2180 , tested in 1996 with a New Holland 6-banger, 456 c.i. turbo and
intercooled. 200 PTO horse at 19.5 HHG.
But, this world-record breaker when hooked to a 5 foot brush hog, uses more fuel than a 1950s Ford gas tractor. It makes 30 horse at 9 HHG.
A 1955 Ford 640 with the 134 gas engine does the same at 11.2 HHG. So, at that low power, it is more efficient then the world-record breaker.
I wonder why people who say they like diesels seem to get upset over known facts about them. If a person is a die-hard diesel fan (like I am), seems you ought to be comfortable with the pros and the cons.
The most fuel efficient diesel tested at Nebraska - only up to 1984 - is not the Deere R. #1 is the Japanese Yanmar with a Deere brand-name stuck on it - the 1650 turbo-diesel. Tested at 18.6 HHG. #2 is the Deere 720 diesel. #3 is the MF-150. #4 is the MF-230.
John Deere R diesel took 17th place.
World record holder right now (last I checked) is a New Holland powered tractor.
Buhler Versatile 2180 , tested in 1996 with a New Holland 6-banger, 456 c.i. turbo and
intercooled. 200 PTO horse at 19.5 HHG.
But, this world-record breaker when hooked to a 5 foot brush hog, uses more fuel than a 1950s Ford gas tractor. It makes 30 horse at 9 HHG.
A 1955 Ford 640 with the 134 gas engine does the same at 11.2 HHG. So, at that low power, it is more efficient then the world-record breaker.
Thanks for making my point. A John Deere 720 diesel shows 18.33 Hp hr/gal. Its gasoline sister shows 12.06 which is exactly what I meant when I referred to diesels making better Hp hr/gal than gassers. If I'm shopping for a tractor of a particular HP class I would look at, for example, an Oliver 1800. Gas or diesel? Which has better numbers? I rest my case although I don't own a Case.
Not sure what exactly your "case" is? I stated over and over, that diesels in general are more efficient then gas, and diesel fuel is cheaper then gasoline fuel - when you figure what your dollar buys in BTUs. I don't think anybody stated anything to the contrary. Not all diesel tractors are more efficint then all gas tractors, but most are. Also, depending on what somebody wants a tractor for - a gas tractor could suit them better. Many non-mechanics get along better with gas tractors simply because gas engines follow certain "rules" that gas cars and trucks do. People with no diesel experience buying diesel tractors for the first time often get in trouble - unless they really take the time to learn a few things that make diesel engines and diesel fuel different. Especially in severe cold weather use.
Somebody at the beginning of all this - asked about what some of the pros and cons are . . for gas and diesels. Since them, some people have tried to answer that question - as asked.
One thing I know for sure - and have seen first hand as a long-time diesel mechanic. Very few "mechanics" know how to work on diesel components. To the converse, many of them CAN work on gas engine components. That lack of skill adds to the extra expense of repairing diesels and sending stuff out to get repaired.
Somebody at the beginning of all this - asked about what some of the pros and cons are . . for gas and diesels. Since them, some people have tried to answer that question - as asked.
One thing I know for sure - and have seen first hand as a long-time diesel mechanic. Very few "mechanics" know how to work on diesel components. To the converse, many of them CAN work on gas engine components. That lack of skill adds to the extra expense of repairing diesels and sending stuff out to get repaired.
Case Maxxum's were somewhere in the 90-100 range with no turbo I think. It's not that they couldn't have been fueled harder. They just wern't.
There were lots of Ford 401's that cleared 110 PTO hp quite easily as well... without the turbo. A bit more displacement but close to the same relative power level.
Rod
There were lots of Ford 401's that cleared 110 PTO hp quite easily as well... without the turbo. A bit more displacement but close to the same relative power level.
Rod
oilburner350
Member
My dad's TW 10 with the non turbo 401 is loud. It may make 115 pto hp, but it sounds like heck. The diesel knock is something else. His TW 20 is much quieter and starts better.
On the other hand his old 1850 gas was much quieter.
On the other hand his old 1850 gas was much quieter.
About your comment re. my comments . .
"jdemaris mentioned the fact that when you compare fuel consumption by weight rather than volume, gas engines don't look so bad"
Nope, that wasn't stated by me. I said gas and diesel have approx. equal BTUs by weight, that's all. I also stated that even when diesel costs more per gallon then gas, it still does more work for the dollar spent.
As a sidenote, not all diesels have wide-open air-intakes, must most do. Some have butterfly-shutters in the intake-pipe that open a close just like a gas-engine trottle-butterfly.
"jdemaris mentioned the fact that when you compare fuel consumption by weight rather than volume, gas engines don't look so bad"
Nope, that wasn't stated by me. I said gas and diesel have approx. equal BTUs by weight, that's all. I also stated that even when diesel costs more per gallon then gas, it still does more work for the dollar spent.
As a sidenote, not all diesels have wide-open air-intakes, must most do. Some have butterfly-shutters in the intake-pipe that open a close just like a gas-engine trottle-butterfly.
Similar threads
We sell tractor parts! We have the parts you need to repair your tractor - the right parts. Our low prices and years of research make us your best choice when you need parts. Shop Online Today.
Copyright © 1997-2024 Yesterday's Tractor Co.
All Rights Reserved. Reproduction of any part of this website, including design and content, without written permission is strictly prohibited. Trade Marks and Trade Names contained and used in this Website are those of others, and are used in this Website in a descriptive sense to refer to the products of others. Use of this Web site constitutes acceptance of our User Agreement and Privacy Policy TRADEMARK DISCLAIMER: Tradenames and Trademarks referred to within Yesterday's Tractor Co. products and within the Yesterday's Tractor Co. websites are the property of their respective trademark holders. None of these trademark holders are affiliated with Yesterday's Tractor Co., our products, or our website nor are we sponsored by them. John Deere and its logos are the registered trademarks of the John Deere Corporation. Agco, Agco Allis, White, Massey Ferguson and their logos are the registered trademarks of AGCO Corporation. Case, Case-IH, Farmall, International Harvester, New Holland and their logos are registered trademarks of CNH Global N.V.
Yesterday's Tractors - Antique Tractor Headquarters
Website Accessibility Policy