O/T Land Measurements

We have an 80 bisected on an angle by a power line right-of-way--they own it. I'm trying to find the approximate property line at the rear of the 80. It's a half-mile deep with frontage on the road. I plan to use a GPS, but where would you start your measurement, center of road? A storm left several trees down in the woods, but I want to make sure I'm cutting my trees and not the neighbors. There used to be a fence but most of it is gone.

Larry

You might try this. You'll have to tune it in to find your property.

Dave

http://www.acme.com/planimeter/

Larry - a metal detector will find the location of that old fence, no matter how bad it's deteriorated. That's assuming a dozer hasn't been involved, of course.

Paul

Couple of items. Has been a long time since I have read legal descriptions in land for sale ads.
Usually the measurement is from the center of the road. Ad would read "southwest quarter of section 23 containing 160 acres more or less". The "more or less" was to allow for the amount actually owned by the township, county, or state for road right of way, but generally referred to as a quarter section.
Normally there is a marker of some type at the corner where your land abuts your neighbor. Might be a concrete post, large rock with a steel or brass plate attached, or a steel post. Steel posts sometimes get buried, need a metal detector to find. Follow the fence on the line with your side neighbor. Should be able to notice the corner by the difference in materials or construction methods.
Ask the neighbor. He/she might know the actual line. Invite him over for fresh coffee & donuts. Could be his trees but he has no use for firewood & give you the go ahead, keep the wood for the work of cleaning up.
Good boundary line fences make good neighbors. If the fence is gone, an invitation to coffee works wonders too.
HTH
Willie

Dave,
That link is great. I'm going to keep it on file for future reference!

You would need to read the right of way/ easement that the road has on your property. Over 50% are about centered on the property line, but many many are not, and so you could be way off assuming the middle of the road is the centerline.

A 40 year feud here: The road easement was 100% on our property meandering through. Road was moved to the property edge, but still 100% on this property. After construction started, the fella running the bulldozers decided the road angle was too sharp, and he could build the road within the right of way but not centered on the engineer's right of way. A bit of notes were made of this in a survey record, kinda on the margins, not really properly recorded. 10 years later the survey company had a fire and all records were lost.

Today, no one in power can figure out where that property line is, and simply measure from the center of the road.... Which is incorrect as things _really_ are. We lost about 3 acres from that 'simple' solution the bulldozer operator made.

So, many times the center of the road is the property line, but it would be wrong to just assume it is so.

Where you need to start is at a cornerstone, which are placed in a grid pattern across the land. This is the correct place to start.

If you have a very old property, it is possible it will reference landmarks rather than cornerstones.

If you truely want this right, you need to start right - with the property deed and it's descxription of where to start!

Me, I'd go by the old fence line, likely several generations have gone by that, and no one will take offence if you use that as your marker. In many cases, an old fence like that can be the legal boundry, rather than the legal description, if everyone has used and accepted that fence line for decades and decades.

You should have an easier time finding the old fence/ posts than in figuring out the actual deeded property line. And, you will upset less people, do less 'boat rocking' if you just use that fenceline as your border.

I would not use any sort of consumer GPS and try to base a property line on that. While they are really neat; they are not accurate enough to stand on their results - you could really open a can of worms in the neighborhood by going that route.... And you would be deemed wrong by any court of law to use such methods to determine your borders.

IMHO, find the lod fenceline and follow that!!!!

Anything else is going to be costly or inaccurate.

Be one with the fence, and have happy neighborhood!

--->Paul

Larry, a Metes and Bounds legal description often COMMENCES at a known given fixed reference (OTHER THEN the centerline of a road, but perhaps where such is also a Section Corner) typically say a Section Corner or Half Section Corner (Primarily, however, Section Corners). The Section Corners (in your County) are often re set and/or re memorialized and recorded and well marked and identified and set/reset by local County Surveyors. A "typical" Section Corner where a Legal Description COMMENCES may read something like "The NW corner of Section XX, Township XN, Range XW, _________ Township of ___________ County, in the State of ____________, XX Princiapl Meridian NOT EXACT OR CORRECT, JUST TO GIVE YOU AN IDEA

NEXT The legal Description will often have a "True Point of Beginning" (Where your property line actually begins as described). Typical such as: A Part of the NW 1/4 of the NW 1/4 of Section 23, Township 7 North, Range 1 West in Indian Creek Township of Monroe County, Indiana, Second Principal Meridian, COMMENCING at the NW corner of Section 23, thence XXX Feet South to an iron pin set in the the Centerline of Rockport Road THE TRUE POINT OF BEGINNING. Thence xx feet south, thence xx feet east, thence xx feet North, thence xx feet west to the TRUE POINT OF BEGINNING and containing xx acres, more or less.

SOOOOOOOOO A Legal Description typically has a POINT WHERE IT COMMENCES (like a Section Corner) and a point WHERE IT ACTUALLY BEGINS which is the beginning boundary description of your particular property. Often a point is described such as the CENTERLINE of a certain road which is often one of your property boundaries i.e. to the center of the road.

Often there may be (buried or maybe partly exposed) an iron pin or railroad spike or pinch rod pipe buried in the road center and likewise at surveyed corners. There may be items such as PK Nails or Shiners located in referenced monuments.

CAUTION Often a survey will show the acreage you have is more or less then the legal description claims......Fence line laws and Adverse Posession and survey accuracies are all factors. Its a good practice to locate and preserve and memorialize old fence corners or fence lines or monuments and ESPECIALLY ANY FOUND SECTION CORNERS and check the County Surveyors office for recordation of surveys and section corners etc that affect or adjoin your property.

Often if it says a road IT WILL SAY THE CENTERLINE OF THE ROAD......... if youre just taking rough estimate measurements, the roads center is a good place....

DISCLAIMER its not possible to accurately and exactly describe in a paragraph what can take books to explain so the above IS JUST AN EXAMPLE. If any questions consult a local licensed LAND SURVEYOR who are EXPERTS and usually more familiar with these laws then attorneys UNLESS perhaps the attorneys are real estate specialist.....

Best wishes, hope this helps

John T The (mostly retired) Country Lawyer in Indiana

Thanks for all the info and comments. Here is my description and a better explanation of what I'm wanting to do. I own the the N 1/2 of the SE 1/4 lying southwesterly of the following line commencing at the N 1/4 post then E 97.16' then S @ 17 deg 5 min 34 sec E 4118.9 feet. This puts the start of the power-line on a road 1/2 mile North of me and 1/2 mile West. That would be the N 1/4 section post. This is the back half of my parcel and marks the west boundary of the power line.

The fence, where remnants remain, was nailed to trees. There are no wood or metal posts. Some of the trees have rotted. Now fallen trees make it difficult. I'll keep looking for the corner "tree" which I beleive is a large oak. Maybe rent a metal detector, but it's just an old rusted barbed wire fence.

The neighbor in back is not a friendly guy and both of our parcels are heavily wooded.

Larry

> The neighbor in back is not a friendly guy and both of our parcels are heavily wooded.

I'd do what I could to preserve the reminants of wire & mark such. This will be the 'undertood' border between you, and how the land was figured for decades.

I'd put away the GPS and forget about starting up any ugliness in the neighborhood. _Unless_ you have a real argument about a chunk of proerty - I'm assuming you agree the old fence line would be close enough to correct?

Fellas that don't get along too good typically don't like new-fangled technology pushed by people out to steal 'their' land.

I'd work real hard on not destroying/ disturbing that old fence line, but adding a few Tee posts or some such that will re-enforce where everyone is comfortable with the current property line.

If it is a straight line, it should be pretty easy to follow the old fence bits. I'd not take out any stumps with wire in them - leave them as the old established markers.

In the moving road issue I mentioned in the last message, the county survey crew put the property line 25 feet over. Dad pointed to the surface of the road, said their is a marker under the tar here. They used a metal detector, dad was within 18 inches of a 'hit' on the detector. They said,w ell, we don't know what is under there tho?

By the next noon, the tar was removed starting there & grader was moving gravel sub-base around, hum no didn't see any sort of metal what do you mean, we're the constreuction people if you have any questions talk to the survey people....?

And so, the feuds continue.

Not fun living with feuds....

--->Paul

> The neighbor in back is not a friendly guy and both of our parcels are heavily wooded.

Before you cut anything down, you had better talk to this unfriendly neighbor and tell him what trees you are cutting. If he's going to put up an argument over ownership, THEN you bring in the surveyors. If you cut the trees and THEN get into a dispute, it will be much worse.

It depends on which state you are in as to how you should proceed.

Generally, there are two types of surveys. One based upon a township and range; and, one based upon metes and bounds.

A T&R survey will generally read as the NW 1/4 NW 1/4 T4N R1W. This is a square shaped 40 acre piece of land in the most northwest corner of the 4th township north of the principal meridian and the 1st range west of the principal longitude.

A metes and bounds description is a descriptive narration of the land. It generally is as follows:

Beginning at a corner at a 1/2 inch IP, being the same corner as the southeast corner of the Jones 120 acre tract,
Thence south 1,320 feet to a 1/2 pin for a corner, being the same as the north east corner of the Smith 80 acre tract;
Thence east 1,320 feet to a 1/2 pin for a corner, being the same as the northwest corner of the Baker 40 acre tract;
Thence north 1,320 feet to a 1/2 pin for a corner, being the same as the southwest corner of the Charles 400 acre tract;
Thence west 1,320 feet to the place of beginning;
containing 40 acres, more or less, in the Wm. Adolphus Survey, A-645.

Note that in the metes and bounds description that the corners are identified as being the same as the corners of adjacent tracts. The purpose of this "corner tie in" is to avoid vacancies and conflicts.

In general, the rank of what determines the boundaries of a piece of land are: 1) Found monuments; and, 2) Recorded descriptions. Found monuments are superior to recorded descriptions.

For your state, you should check with an abstract company or your local clerk's office to find the prior descriptions for your land from the prior sales.

From your deed, look at the description to find where your corner monuments are located. This is where you will want to start.

Be careful with hand held GPS instruments as they may only be accurate to with in 30 feet.

With the powerline ROW, I would recommend that you check the deed records to verify whether or not the utility purchased the ROW (actually unlikely in my experience) or merely obtained an easement.

hth

pkurilecz

Larry, The laws regarding boundaries and old established fence lines and Adverse Posession can fill libraries and Im obviously NOT going to open that entire can of worms here in laymans terms for several reasons. That being said and to provide you with a small bit of free professional legal advice, you need to COLLECT AND PRESERVE AND MEMORIALIZE ANY AND ALL EVIDENCE OF THAT OLD FENCE LINE !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

BEFORE you do anything Id take plenty of pictures and even some video recordings and DO NOT TEAR DOWN ANY OLD FENCE. You might drive a few new steel T Posts along it regardless if its in bad shape currently. Its good to start some maintenance and clearing etc on your property up to any old fences and begin treating and especially MAINTAINING it as your own.

You can hire a surveyor but I see no need for that currently. If you do HIS SURVEY DOES NOT ESTABLISH ANY "LEGAL" BOUNDARY, its merely a qualified and EXPERT OPINION. Theres an entire body of law regarding boundary disputes and its pretty well settled and the Courts, NOT you or I or the neighbor or surveyors or anyone here who makes the call.

Preserve, record, maintain and treat the old fence as your boundary and take two aspirins n call me at the office Monday lol. If any serious important questions arise, consult trained professionals and experts like local surveyors and attorneys before you risk what the "brother in law" has to say about it lol

God Bless n best wishes

John T

Just to confuse the matter a bit more:
WILLIE: the US section grid has been laid out on a globe, which means "adjustments" have to be made, which means there're lots of "quarters" of less than 160 (and some that're MORE). The County Surveyors office will have the original GLO plats, or they may be online.
ROADS: (Sigh) A mess. In Calif/Ore most often county road EASEMENTS; only in later years did County/State/Fed take actual fee title (complete ownership) of the road area.
So, assuming road easement originally with centerline along property line: "...thence S 30 E to the centerline of the road; thence along the centerline...". OH?? centerline as it existed when?? If you bought along the centerline in 1940, and you're selling now, is the centerline the same?? If not, you're either omitting some or claiming part of someone else's...
County Surveyors offices should have road records and original road plats, and the differences between then and now are sometimes frightening...you also want to check, if researching Cty Rd 16, whether any partial realignments were made as part of CR16 records or maybe got new numbers, like CR136 or CR457 for the realigned sections...isn't this fun???
These comments are based on Calif/Oregon procedures, and may not apply, in some instances, to other states.

That is way kool

The example you gave is a newer metes and bounds survey. Here in west Ky many deeds are still the same as they were before the war of northern aggression. One corner of the last survey of my farm is marked by a red oak tree, another is marked by a "three trunked gum" tree. Never have found the triple gum tree but there is an old hedge post that has been there as long as any one can recall and me and the neighbor call it the corner. My dad works in the farm load buisness and had a deed come across his desk a few years ago a county south of here that corner of the farm was recorded as a white oak tree with a red cow under it. Buddy of mine in an auctioneer who sold a farm several years ago with a corner recorded as a maple stump with a ****** set'n on it.

Dave

Hi kyplowboy:

Yes that is a newer metes and bounds description. The principle still applies.

Regardless of where the land is located or how antiquated the description is, it is usually possible to locate a found monument and work from there.

The farthest I have had to go to locate a monument is about 3 miles.

In parts of TX I still run across deeds that give the distance in varas. A vara was a spanish unit of measurement and it varies in length depending upon the year the survey was made and the county in which the land lays.

Fortunately, the use of trees as corner marks or witness posts hasn't been done in years.

As to the old hedge post, I would put up at least 1 witness post nearby and record it via an affidavit in the deed records.

Take care

pkurilecz

That's very cool. I always wondered how big my pond is. Now I know: 1.4 acres, with about .3 of those acres on my neighbor's side of the property line.

Why not just look at this site?


http://beacon.schneidercorp.com/

It is not real easy to use, but once you figure it out, it is very simple.

You can find every measurment, the taxes paid, when the taxes was paid, property lines,new and od creek beds, ponds, terraces, military or homestead exemptions, soil types in each field, even if there are a dozen different types. Also a map that you can zoom in and check how many apples are on the trees. The property lines that go through your apple tree if you want to know.

You do not have toclick on the parcel, just put the mouse over it, and it will tell you who owns it, and the value of it.

It will group all your property with a outline etc.

It has a down side, the marketers can find out every person that owns property, and then try to sell them siding, roofing etc.

Like I said not real easy, but just great.

I found a lot of the old fence wire on two sides of my property by using one of those V shaped garden hoes and scratching on the ground in the area that I thought the line fence should run. I tied up ribbons along the way where I found the wire and then was able to sight down them and figure out approximately where the old line fence was. I did this for hunting purposes and actually gained a lot of space from where I thought some of the fence ran.

All depends where you sit.

northern agression or southern obsession.