Lead addatives

Does anyone us a lead addative in there older tractors? Witch ones are the best? Tried one the other day and I think the tractor runs worse.

No need for lead additives, or any other kind of additive.

I don't know what you used, or how much - but it shouldn't make any difference in how the tractor runs. The lead additives are usually intended to stop your valves from drilling themselves into the seats (called valve recession). That is only an issue on tractors that get used hard, all day, every day. Not an issue for part-time use tractors, or an issue with hardened seats.

Now, if your using something in an attempt to boost octane - you must have a high altitude tractor, or a high-compression Oliver??

There is if someone has a tractor without hardened valve seats and uses their gas tractor all day, every day. But, I suspect that rarely happens anymore. Severe valve recession can happen with that kind of use.

Even then, in the long run, it's probably cheaper to do a good valve job with hardened parts - instead of buying additive for years.

Take a look at the posting on the Garden tractor forum to see if you have one like he describes. Hal

Out of curiosity, what kind of tractor do you have that you think you need lead additive?

I don't know what the guy has, but many if not most older tractors will last longer with lead additive, IF used like real farm tractors - which I assume rarely happens anymore. Valve recession happens when a tractor is run hot and hard, all day, and has no hardened valve seats. Also, those that have had valve-jobs in the past 20 years might have been upgraded with hard seats anyway.

I can't give a specific list, but I used to do a lot of valve work on pre-1960 tractors (still do some). Very few came OEM with hardened valve seat inserts (that don't suffer from recession). Obviously, some did, but it was not standard.

I just did a valve job on an late 50s Oliver with a Hercules engine - and it has NO seat-inserts. Also just did a Deere 1960 1010 and a 1966 350, and again . . no inserts. Also recently did a Ferguson 1959 TO35 with a Continental Z-134 and it also had no seat inserts. I've also know that my Case DCs, VACs, and 530 also do not have hardened seats. My Shaw tractor with a Wisconsin engine does have them OEM.

Seems the question should be which ones did, instead of which ones did not. I know many Ford engines had them. Many air-cooled engines also had them. Not sure what else.

There were controlled tests done on many no-hard-seat engines run on unleaded gas - and there is NO doubt they suffer when used hard and long. But, when used part-time, it's not an issue.

That question comes up way too often you just dont need it unless you want to spend the money.

It seems a bit silly to say "nobody" needs it. Might be a few out there using their un-updated gas tractors hard.

This sort of thing is more "recent news" in places like South Africa that did not phase out leaded gasoline until 2006. They are now putting potassium in the gasoline as a lead-replacement to protect older engines with soft valve seats.

Yes, the question does come up often, but the frequency of the question proves nothing, one way or the other. These sort of posts tend to get many correct and incorrect responses.

Test data has showed, over and over, that yes . . . in engines with soft valve seats, recession is a problem in engines used extremely hard. Otherwise, it's more of a non-issue.

And, to be fair, lead-replacement formula rarely if ever actually use lead anymore. They tend to use alternate chemicals.

Like I said, it was a curiosity question more than anything. I have a '71 Cougar that has not has the engine apart. I run a lead additive in it when I do gas up. Does it do any good? I've been told it doesn't, but who knows?
I also used to belong to an antique tractor club. The main "expert" in the groups swore up and down that lead was not needed in an antique tractor of any kind. I guess you have proved that maybe some of them do need a little help in the hardened seat department.
FWIW, years ago Moroso sold some genuine Tetra Ethyl Lead gasoline additive. I'm sure the EPA made them stop that real quick.
How I long for those days.

Many people say things based on "gut feelings" or something gets said, instead of what it is actually based on. Kind of like politics.
what they've heard .. . or anecdotal events. I know some people base truth-value on how many times
I was a Deere mechanic when leaded gas got dropped in the US, so I've been hearing many of the stories for a long time. And at that time, we did have customers using gas-tractors hard and full time. Wild exagerated claims were made about engine failures - just to sell products. Machine shops also did it trying to sell valve-job upgrades. But that does not negate the fact that there can be some problems with unleaded fuel in older engines. When leaded fuel got dropped there were many fears and complaints. Not mixing properly with oil for two-stroke-cycle engines, not cleaning grease as well as leaded, engine failure, no other suitable octane enhancer, etc. &c. But with many BS stories, some truth lurks behind the hyperbole.

I've worked in injection pump shops, auto machine shops, and in several tractor dealerships going back to the 1960s. That being said, I rarely get to know - for sure - what causes certain failures. Much gets based on assumptions.

I hear a lot of nonsense with unleaded gas, with high sulfur low-lube diesel, etc. Both situations have been researched and subsequent lab testing done. I'll trust the lab and test results over anybody's word or feelings.

One is money ahead if one saves the money that would be 'wasted' on the lead substitues (check out the price & frequency of adding a can of them....) and instead put that money into a fund for rebuilding the head several years from now.

When it's rebuilt it will get hardened seats, and again not need any additives.

Makes some feel good, and perhaps it does do some good, but heads wear out eventually either way & need rebuilding. Dollar wise, better to save the money & not use the additives.

--->Paul

Not as bad as it used to be. Used to be once or twice a week somebody asks this stinker. Now it's only once or twice a month.

Ever notice gas highway vehicles were worn out, oil burning,deposit loaded smoke spewing clunks at 100,000 miles?
Then they took the lead out of gasoline in the mid 80's. Now nobody bats an eye hearing about a 300,000 mile gasser that runs fine.
We do use a very low lead gasoline around here at season end because it can't be purchased in unleaded. It's 100LL aviation gas. It doesn't gum or plug fuel systems in seasonal equipment.

Yeah, but you're talking like a Cargo-Cult believer. Many other things were happening when unleaded became the norm. It was about strict EPA regs, Japanese invasion of very reliable cars making fools of US auto-makers, etc.

So, yes - the days of the routine "carbon and valve job" every 60,000 miles are gone. The "lean-burn" Chrysler is also long gone. The auto-makers had to start using much better materials in the valve-train, stricter machining tolerances, computer controlled fuel injection, etc. So today, we've got all new engines (that I know of) with CPU monitored fuel injection, roller cams, super hard valve and valve seats, very durable valve guides, tight valve seals, hotter running engines, computer-monitored ignition timing and somtimes valve timing, small and many small valves instead of fewer bigger ones . . . and motor oil fuel with less deposit-creating additives, etc.

Much of these newer improvements have little to do with old farm tractors. That except modern motor oil for highway vehicles is ill-suited for older farm tractors with flat-tappet camshafts.

Seems what happens is - some change gets made, people freak out when it happens on both sides of the argument, but eventually the old equipment gets phased out, and people assume there never was a problem to start with.

When leaded fuel first got dropped in the USA, replacement additives were being put in most blends of unleaded gasoline to forgo any potential problems. This is still done in many countries.

Same thing is going on now with low-sulfur diesl fuel in the USA and Canada. All of it gets lube additives put in to help make it more suitable for older mechanical pumps and injectors. At some point in time, I bet the use of those lube additives will stop and anybody left driving a 25 year old diesel (or more) will have to fend for themselves. Then many will say there never was a problem and it was all BS.

I will say this. In the good-old days of leaded fuel and low-tech engines, many had to be pulled apart due to excess carbon build up. Now, running on cleaner fuel - who knows what will go first instead?

Kind of funny when you read old British tech manuals. They often warn, that when you have the heads off the engine, NOT to scrape out all the carbon. They say to leave a ring of carbon aroud the edge of the piston-top to aid in compression. But what the heck did they know? They built MGs, Sunmbeams, Austin Healys, and Triumphs that rarely lasted 40K miles.

If you have hardened exhuast valve seats you dont need the lead.Many indudtrial engines had the hard seats,some didnt

Lead additives are not available. The additives claim to be "lead substitutes." Purchase of these does help those who make and sell them. Amoco (now BP) NEVER had lead in their premium gasoline. In 1949 when Olds and Cadillac introduced higher compression overhead valve engines, followed by Chrysler with the Hemi in 1951, one of the favorite gasolines for these was the Amoco "white gas". Never any reports of valve problems related to the gasoline.
Amoco

All that stuff is is a snake oil and does not even have lead in it. It is only good for one thing and that is to keep a company making $$ it does nothing more but costs a person $$ and that is it

The one thing you can be certain about with any of these so-called "lead" additives is they don't contain any lead. Which begs the question "why would you bother?"

There are two things that tetraethyl leads provides (in addition to highly toxic emissions): Improved knock resistance (octane) and better valve life. The low compression ratio of most old tractors means that higher octane is wasted. For engines that need higher octane than regular unleaded, there's premium unleaded.

Now the valve situation is a bit different; one reason avgas still has lead is for better valve life. However, many aircraft engines have run thousands of hours on unleaded fuel with no ill effects. Most aircraft engine builders recommend the use of leaded gas for the first few hours; it's believed that enough lead is deposited on the valves and seats in the first ten hours of operation to last until overhaul. At any rate, there's no evidence that any of the snake oil additives will take the place of lead to protect valve seats; if you're really worried about it add a gallon of avgas to your tank every so often.

There is a lot more going on than just the removal of lead. Oils are better, fuel injection so the cylinders don't get washed down nor the oil fuel diluted, electronic ignition/hotter spark/precision timing which allows for leaner mixtures and once again, no more fuel dilution in the oil, and the engine components are made of different materials, engine blocks in particular. I for one don't miss the high maintenance carburetor/points/condenser/cap/rotor days.

(quoted from post at 10:02:50 10/04/10) I don't know what the guy has, but many if not most older tractors will last longer with lead additive, IF used like real farm tractors - which I assume rarely happens anymore. Valve recession happens when a tractor is run hot and hard, all day, and has no hardened valve seats. Also, those that have had valve-jobs in the past 20 years might have been upgraded with hard seats anyway.

I can't give a specific list, but I used to do a lot of valve work on pre-1960 tractors (still do some). Very few came OEM with hardened valve seat inserts (that don't suffer from recession). Obviously, some did, but it was not standard.

I just did a valve job on an late 50s Oliver with a Hercules engine - and it has NO seat-inserts. Also just did a Deere 1960 1010 and a 1966 350, and again . . no inserts. Also recently did a Ferguson 1959 TO35 with a Continental Z-134 and it also had no seat inserts. I've also know that my Case DCs, VACs, and 530 also do not have hardened seats. My Shaw tractor with a Wisconsin engine does have them OEM.

Seems the question should be which ones did, instead of which ones did not. I know many Ford engines had them. Many air-cooled engines also had them. Not sure what else.

There were controlled tests done on many no-hard-seat engines run on unleaded gas - and there is NO doubt they suffer when used hard and long. But, when used part-time, it's not an issue.

Click to expand...

While I agree with JDemaris on most everything he posts, I have to ask myself ,every time the lead substitute subject comes up ." How did those tractors that used gasoline to start and warm up on then switch over to kerosene work as hard and last as long as they did without a valve job at least or a complete overhaul"? They couldn't get enough lead deposited on the valves each time the engine was started cold to protect them.Did all those engines have hardend seats?

Some had induction seats even though there were no separate hardened inserts pressed in. Also, there are many other things in fuels that leave protective deposits on valve-seats. Lead is just one of many. Deposits protect seats from recession, but can also cause leaks and valve burning. It's a mix of pros and cons.

Also, just how hard and fast did these old engines get used versus how long they lasted between teardowns ? We used to do many valve jobs, regardless of fuels used.

If you are talking about spark ignition tractors that ran slow, and used very low compression ratios so they could burn alcohol, distillate "tractor fuel", kerosene, gasoline, etc. - you can't compare to more modern engines built late 50s, 60s, etc. that run higher compression ratios, higher RPMs, have hotter combustion chambers, and use gasoline only.

Seems to be many generalities thrown around here, in attempts to prove specific points - and that is illogical (in my opinion).

With any statements I've made, I've attemped to qualify them all and be specific.

Unleaded fuel used in modern gasoline-only engines has been proven to accelerate valve-seat recession when used in extreme HD service when seats are not hard. That is been proven with controlled testing, over and over -mostly overseas where it is a more current issue. Around here in the USA and Canada? Pretty hard to prove from mostly anecdotal reports. How many old gas tractors get used for severe duty? How many are tested with tight controls? If you buy a 1950s tractor, use unleaded, and burn a valve - you're never going to know what really caused it. And, if you do a rebuild along with a valve job, and use unleaded, and the valves recede after 2000 engine hours - you still are not going to know for sure what happened. Might of been some poor valve work, or poor quality aftermarket valve parts, etc. Thus the reason why I'll pay attention to controlled experiments on valve wear only - and pretty much disregard most else.

You of course, are free to believe anything you want.

When this WAS a current issue in the USA and Canada, alternative additives were put into gasoline to offset potential valve-seat wear. So, somebody in North America believed there was a potential problem. Just like now, with all diesel fuel in the USA and Canada getting lube-additives put in -mandated by law to offset premature wear in mechanical injection pumps.

In Europe, those few countries where unleaded gas is a recent thing - gas is getting potassium added to offset wear.