Watch Who You Buy From

I bought a tractor from a guy in Jan of this year it was a good deal but I did not steal it.My neighbor new him an he did not think to highly of him but I bought it anyways.The guy did say he was going thur a divorce. I did not even think on asking him if the tractor was paid for.I have bought many tractors before an never had any problems.Me, my son, an my neighbor picked up the tractor on a saturday I gave the man 6 grand cash an I asked for a bill of sale.He wrote out one an signed it. my son drove the tractor home.Last month on a saturday morning we got a wakeup call from 2 men saying they were there to repo a stolen tractor.I told them no way is this tractor leaveing I paid cash for it an I have a bill of sale an a witness. my wife called my good neighbor an he was there in minutes.These guy kept saying that is has to go that I will have to sue him an I said its not leaveing unless the cops are here.The repo guys then ask me If I would like to talk to this guy on the phone an I said yes I would talk to him so the repo man trys to call this bozo an he cannot get ahold of him.We are standing in my drive an the repo guys phone rings its him calling back.The repo guy tells him he has some explaining to do that he has a bill of sale ,an a witness that says he sold it an that fileing a false police report will get him thrown in jail the repo guy tells him he will give him untill next wednesday to clear the loan up with John Deere credit. It sounds like he told John Deere that the tractor had been stolen. the repo guys then left.That monday I called my Lawyer an he said do not let them take it lock it up for awhile an if they serve you with anything call him back.Before this happened I did not really know my rights I know a little more now.I will be much more careful when buying another tractor.Make sure you get that Bill of sale with the serial number on it an PAID IN FULL.I am positive that if those Repo Guys would have seen that tractor I would have been out of the money I paid for it

Have "Free of liens and encumberances" written on the bill of sale. That puts it back on the seller. It's a good idea to have a witness also sign the bill of sale. Sounds like the repo guys had some common sense and didn't just load the tractor up and take off without even telling you. Dave

I seen those repo guys on T.V.

Heres what a guy i know did,,,Strip that tractor down to the bare frame with nothing left but a serial # and let them have it,,,,,,,,,,,,and then sell parts .

John Deere Credit DOES NOT USE REPO MEN. The selling dealer is responsible for assisting John Deere Credit in reclaiming equipment in default. The selling dealer is also on the hook if the buyer defaults and there is a shortage.
Unless this was a piece of lawn and garden equipment financed through John Deere Revolving Plan( John Deere"s charge card). Even then they usually just have the closest dealer go pick it up. They pay the dealer for the cost of recovering the equipment.

It's highly possible the two guys were sent from the JD dealer and they were basically hoping to repo the tractor. Why is the dealer on the hook if the buyer defaults? The dealer isn't the one who approves the financing, JD credit does. Seems like no dealer would want to sell on credit with a policy like that. Dave

When I bought the tractor there was no dealer involved. Just the seller. the repo guys did show me a ucc statement showing that he did still have a loan on it. which was his business not mine. they told me it was not his to sell which I said bull. these guys tried everything to try an get that tractor. there is not a day that goes buy that I dont think about it

JD Seller is correct...... Your local dealer has full recourse if you default on a equipment loan and your local dealer will be the one who "repos" the tractor.

I have picked up many a tractor in my years working in dealerships.

I can see the dealer picking it up but not being responsible for any short comings. I would guess that in most cases the tractor being resold would cover any losses from the original sale. Dave

I would see if you could put a lien on any property he has until the tractor matter is resolved. That could put a big damper on dividing property during the divorce. Making the tractor disappear until you either get your money back or something official that shows you are the rightful owner might be a good thing to do. You have a bill of sale. Maybe he can use the money you paid him to pay off the loan? That would solve everything. Dave

Its been more like 2 months since it happened.that day they left I have not heard anything.

Glenn, It sounds like this guy had the fear of God put in him and it may well be resolved. Since you are unfortunately involved you may have access to information on the status of the issue. Did you call the dealer to see if the debt's been satisfied? Was the debt over 6K? Seems to me if the debt still exists someone would want the tractor or you would have heard about it. Good thing you got a signed bill of sale otherwise it's just your word against his.
Gerard

In Massachusetts you can always check for a UCC. It is a filing that most people that have a lien on a tractor file on a state or county level. It's public record and you can usually check for one online for free nowadays. JD files one of these for every piece of equipment they have a lien on. I included the link below for the MA search site.
Mass UCC search

If the tractor didn't belong to the fellow, it wasn't his to sell.......no matter what kind of documentation you've got. This was addressed in a thread earlier in the week and both of the attorneys who frequent these forums addressed the issue. The rightful owner will probably eventually show up to claim it.

You can rest assured that JD credit has dotted the "i"s and crossed the "t"s regarding the UCC filings. As a result, they will no doubt have first lien against the tractor.

Your recourse will be with the seller who sold a tractor that he did not own. Most likely he is judgment proof, and other liens have already been filed against his assets.

Conceivably, you may be found a subsequent "buyer in good faith" but not necessarily. In any event, such determination must be made by a court of law. The cost of litigating the matter could easily exceed the $6000 cost of the tractor.

Dean

Sounds to me like that guy that sold you the tractor is pulling a scam.If they had the authority to repo the tractor they'd of taken it and most probably would have showed up with law enforcement since supposedly the tractor was reported stolen and the seller would be charge with filing a false police report.

This story has some holes in it? How did they know you had it? Real repro men would have papers on it, sound like a scam.

Some good, common sense opinions below, and some "I don't need no stinkin' law degree" jailhouse lawyer comments. Since every state has it's own laws, and MOST people don't fully understand the laws that apply to their own area, I'd stick close to what your attorney tells you.

Also, after experiencing something vaguely simular once upon a time, I'd refer EVERYONE to your attorney and not make ANY comments to anyone. I was able to get a court injunction prohibiting anyone from taking further action until the case was settled in court. Once the tractor is out of your posession, chances of recovering cost and/or keeping it will be greatly diminished.

Many of you gents miss the point that THE TRUE AND LAWFUL OWNER ALWAYS PREVAILS IN A COURT OF LAW (as he should) AND THATS REGARDLESS IF YOU HAVE 1000 NOTARIZED BILLS OF SALE WRITTEN IN BLOOD WITNESSED BY THE POPE AND MOTHER THERESA. All that makes no difference if theres a true owner, allllllllll it does is establish you as the current rightful peaceful posessor and can make your title superior to allllllll in the world EXCEPT FOR THE LAWFUL OWNER. Its indeed good to have and I also would insist upon getting a signed bill of sale (with SN and signatures and description and free of liens pronouncements etc etc) as its good evidence you were a bona fide purchaser in good faith and for value. Its also serves as good admissible evidence in any action against the seller. YOU REALLY REALLYYYYYYYYYYY WANT TO GET THAT WHEN YOU BUY PERSONAL NON TITLED PROPERTY.

YOUR LEGAL CAUSE OF ACTION HOWEVER LIES WITH THE DUDE WHO SOLD IT TO YOU......Its he with whom you have privity of contract and he who may have comitted fraud against you.

Private Repo men ARE GENERALLY NOT SHERIFFS OR COURT APPOINTED OFFICIALS althoug the law does allow them to do certain things on behalf of the bank who hired them and who has the lawful right to re posess the car as a matter of contract. You are NOT required, however, to give them anything when they drive up without a court order that says you indeed must. If they want something let them go to court and obtain a court order which a sheriff can serve and thennnnnnnnn if you dont hand it over you may be in contempt of court. HOWEVER in some jurisdictions repo men are indeed authorized as a matter of law to recover personal property if they can do so without "breaching the peace", buttttttttt if the dude runs out and starts a fight kickin n screaming n threating and theres a breach of the peace the law likely says they must back off and leave. Best I recall if they can sneak up n snatch n grab a car off the public streets (and NOT be a breach of peace) its perfectly lawful buttttttt they cant do so if its locked in your garage (they cant break n enter)

Soooooooooo to protect yourself get the descriptive bill of sale to establish yourself as the current peaceful posessor to make your title superior to allllllll except for a rightful owner (like if it was stolen from him) and to provide evidence against the seller if he was guily of fraud and DO NOT peacefully surrender anything without a court order AND YES ITS GOOD TO DO A UCC LIEN SEARCH FOR YOU OWN KNOWLEDGE as if there is none it enforces your rights as a bona fide purchaser in good faith and for value

HOWEVERRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR WARNINGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGG DO NOTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTTT do as suggested to destroy or part out the tractor because once you have notice there may be a lawful owner out there and/or it may be stolen youre NOT allowed to take the law in your own hands as in equity then you no longer have "clean hands"

Recall from yesterday, you dont need anything (Bills of sale etc) if youre the current peaceful posessor (its yours for now at least) butttttttttt its the dude who shows up and says "hey thats my tractor" that has the burden of going forward and and the burden of persuasion in court. The Bill of Sale helps you as far as insurance claims (and your being a bona fide purchaser) and if it gets stolen from you BUTTTTTTTTTTTT it worthless against a true lawful owner if any exist although they have to establish the same.

Yall take care n God Bless, I dont practice reposessions maybe my friend Mike does, so believe him over me butttttttttttttttttttt I advise you to seek LOCAL TRAINED PROFESSIONAL EXPERT LEGAL COUNSEL in these serious matters over advice found here INCLUDING MY OWN absent all the facts and researching your states laws.........

John T Country Lawyer in Indiana

I sold a combine to a local jockey back in the 80s. He wouldn't even pay me until he checked with the courthouse to see if there was a lein on it. Said he wouldn't buy ANYTHING from ANYBODY until he checked.

Two things I'd do if I were you #1 go to the couthouse in the county where the fellow lives you bought the tractor from and see if JD has recorded a lien #2 check with JD they have a list of of serial numbers of stolen equipment.

Be sure you sell them quickly, though, because its harder to sell parts from jail. Which is where you'll be going, because you have knowledge that there is a lienholder.

Around here I beleive you can sell anything that has a lean on it,but you not the purchaser end up going to jail if you don't pay off the lean.

Don't know if I'm the Mike you're referring to, but I'll give it a shot.

Sounds like the seller was the actual owner of the tractor, but still owed JD Credit on it. Of course, he stopped making the payments, hence the attempted repo.

First, I agree that you should lock it away so the repo guys would have to break and enter to get it. In my state (and John's), they can only take it peaceably, and cannot breach the peace. That will give you time to explore your legal options, and decide what to do.

JD Credit always files a "security interest" in the proper method for the state, usually a UCC filing. Your lawyer should have already done a UCC search. If he hasn't, or doesn't know how to do one, get a smarter lawyer. Most states have central filing through the state, I think, so going to the county courthouse will get you blank stares. I would imagine every state can now be searched "on line", so its not a difficult process.

Now, to the crux of the matter. The good news, if my analysis of the facts above was correct, is you now own the tractor. Fair and square. The bad news is, you bought it subject to the JD Credit loan, which you must pay if you want to keep it. If it had been a private loan from another individual, and he showed up with a Note and Security Agreement but he had not filed them with the proper agency, you would be a "bona fide purchaser" (bought for value, without knowledge of a defect in title) and you would be in the clear. But if the creditor filed the lien (which JD Credit almost certainly did), you're stuck, because if you fail to search the public record before you buy, you are not a bona fide purchaser- purchasing "without knowledge" presupposes you have done some investigation, and checking the public record is the minimum requirement. The Ostrich Defense doesn't work.

You can certainly go after the seller, and you should look into that- if he had a fairly new tractor, he probably has other assets that you could execute against. But find out early on what all this will cost, because it may well be more than the value of the rig, and your first loss might be your least loss.

Please don't listen to all the righteously indignant guys who advocate "self help", stripping the tractor, etc., unless they volunteer to serve your time for you. It will only make a bad situation worse.

Mike (WA), another "country lawyer" (and previously Farm Credit loan officer for 15 years).

Keep it locked up- 2 months is the "blink of an eye" in legal matters. They have 3 years to go after you, and waiting has 2 benefits for them: The delinquent payments pile up, making it more difficult for you to suddenly come up with the money, and you may let your guard down and make it easy for them to grab the tractor. They are in a much better tactical position if they have the tractor- they can just sell it, and be done with it, because you have no defense against John Deere.

Kudos! I've learned something too.

Well that is certainly good info, but I doubt that I could afford a tractor new enough to still have a lien on it!! ;^)

If he paid 6K for it, thinking it was the full price, I'm guessing its a little compact utility that sold new for about 10 a few years ago, financed for 5 or 7 years so some still owing. He needs to get particulars, and weigh paying some additional and having a tractor, or walking away.

Glenn can probably negotiate a lesser payoff (so long as he holds onto the tractor) because JD doesn't want the hassle (and expense) of going to court to get a judgment, Writ of Replevin, etc., etc. JD's leverage is the tractor- they have no other hold on Glenn, and can't get attorney fees from him even if the contract provides for it, because Glenn didn't sign the contract. If I were advising Glenn, I'd tell him to have his attorney contact JD and get this thing moving, instead of laying in the weeds. Its not going away, might as well get it over with.

They can still take the tractor,your bill of sale and witness mean nothing if you were sold a morgaged tractor.The first lien holder gets it and you have to sue and will probably never see any money even if you win.It could have been sold to other people the same way.

I think Glenn and/or his lawyer should be talking to the neighbor with the $6000 Glenn paid. He's the cause of the problem and may want to avoid going to jail for fraud, theft and any other charges. You'd think there would be enough out of the $6000 to pay off the tractor. Dave

> Well that is certainly good info, but I doubt that I could afford a tractor new enough to still have a lien on it!!

The closest I could get to a tractor with a lien on it is a tractor with a lean to it.

The facts are not lined up on that story. No one sends the repo guys after a stolen tractor. You would have gotten a personal visit from law enforcement.

A friend of mine was looking at a late model ford compact tractor that was for sale cheap.
He had the new holland dealer run the serial number and it came back stolen.The next day the new holland credit wanted to know who was asking about that serial number.The dealer didn't want to get my friend in trouble so he told them he didn't know. They told him he had 24 hours to find out or he was going to jail.My friend agreed to talk to the law cause he wasn't involved and didn't know the tractor seller.

I think I would be going over to the neighbors and demand he take care of this or give you a refund.

Wrong on several points.I am a retired JDC credit manager and after we were relieved of doing repos,hired repo people continued the chore of repossessing.We could ask for the equipment,but if the creditor refused we had to get a replevin and have the sheriff serve it.And on many occasions I did sleuting to find a tractor that had been sold with a lien still attached.And on several occasions when the tractor was out in the open snatched it.Each time the supposed owners were very upset to think they were going to have to pay to get back what they thought was theirs.I knew the laws and what I could do and what I couldn't so all the above arm chair lawyers can call me on this if they would like to.I'd be happy to answer any and all questions. Enough said.

If anyone has a stolen tractor in their possession and knows its stolen they are obligated to give it back to the true owner and if they try to circumvent the
law they can be charged with Obstruction and receiving stolen merchandise

I know you're just being funny but JD credit does finance used equipment. Also I had a production loan from Farm Credit Service years ago and my rather well worn line up of equipment was collateral. Just because its old doesn't mean its free of leins.

I kinda thought the world was coming to this problem on tractors even though they don't yet have titles.

I bought a Kubota a few years back and I called Kubota dealer and had them run the serial number just to check for something like this. Turned out he bought it from this dealer and paid for it so no problems.