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- Thread starter JackT
- Start date
I cant speak directly to the V10. I've got a 2001 24 valve Cummins and a 2009 Ford 5.7 gas both in 2500/250 series trucks. I love my diesels, got 11 pieces of equipment all diesel plus the trucks. With that said, I'm not buying another diesel pickup. Replacing a whole top end on the Cummins at 185000 miles cost about what two whole 5.7 liter long blocks would. Fuel economy is a lot better with the diesel but over the last decade diesel has cost more than gas more often than not. If I need a diesel truck I'll get a 'real' one, something with International, Volvo, or the like on the hood. For around and about I'll go with the gas ones. I'd a lot rather go with a smaller gas engine and lower gearing. None of them are going to get great fuel economy. For daily drving and etc I'd pick a good, cheap, used car.
A person should also consider the additional cost of oil and filter changes, and fuel and air filter costs on the Diesel pickups compared to gas powered ones. I found a 2000 GMC with the 5.3L V8 and it has proved to be an 18 MPG pickup traveling. Pulling a loaded trailer, 12 mpg. I've had Diesels, and agree that in the long run gas pickups are more economical.
how often will you tow, how big, how far, and how often will you drive it empty? How long will you keep it.
If you dont tow often, dont tow over 8k, trade it evey 125k, get a gas.. its cheaper.
If you tow huge very often or keep it for 500,000 miles go diesel... I regularly tow 13k to 25k with my dodge 2001 cummings as I buy and sell tractors. some of the tractors weigh 11k plus the 7k trailer,, or two 7k tractors with the 7k trailer.. so my choice was limited.. I dont drive this truck empty or as a run a round vehicle though. My old 6.9 1985 diesel wouldnt pull any more than a gas engine. It really gave up at 10k..
If you dont tow often, dont tow over 8k, trade it evey 125k, get a gas.. its cheaper.
If you tow huge very often or keep it for 500,000 miles go diesel... I regularly tow 13k to 25k with my dodge 2001 cummings as I buy and sell tractors. some of the tractors weigh 11k plus the 7k trailer,, or two 7k tractors with the 7k trailer.. so my choice was limited.. I dont drive this truck empty or as a run a round vehicle though. My old 6.9 1985 diesel wouldnt pull any more than a gas engine. It really gave up at 10k..
I agree with not paying for a diesel engine that only lasts as long as modern gas engines . I have been there and done that still have my last diesel pickup that I bought but had to replace the engine at 257k . won't buy another diesel in a pickup because they are 7k more than a gas engine. you can't ever get the money back as in the past.
Tramway Guy
Well-known Member
I have had 3 Dodges since 1993, put more than 150,000 on the two earlier ones and have almost 90,000 on my '06. I have never had to have any engine or fuel pump work done on any of them.
I think you will find that the best fuel economy advantage is when the truck is empty. It the diesel is much better with part loads. I get almost 20 mpg with a little tire overinflation. Pulling a medium size trailer, you can expect to get down to 14 or 15 mpg. Doubt you would get much lower than 12 or 13.
The oil change interval for the '06 is as much as 15000 miles based on duty cycle. Yes, even though it uses 12 quarts per change, I don't think it is that bad.
I think you will find that the best fuel economy advantage is when the truck is empty. It the diesel is much better with part loads. I get almost 20 mpg with a little tire overinflation. Pulling a medium size trailer, you can expect to get down to 14 or 15 mpg. Doubt you would get much lower than 12 or 13.
The oil change interval for the '06 is as much as 15000 miles based on duty cycle. Yes, even though it uses 12 quarts per change, I don't think it is that bad.
I'm not familar with the v-10 in a Dodge but I am with the 360 gas. My truck is a 2500 4x4 ext cab long bed automatic and 3.55 rears. I am VERY impressed with what this truck can handle. The getting stopped are more of a problem then getting going.
If I towed much I'd rather have the 4.09 rear end. But I can get about 14 mpg running to work empty. Never had it on a straight hi-way trip empty.
If I towed much I'd rather have the 4.09 rear end. But I can get about 14 mpg running to work empty. Never had it on a straight hi-way trip empty.
IndianaRed
Member
Towed more than I care to think about with my '06 3/4 ton Chevy. Passing 410,000 miles, half those pulling, still all original. Tranny's a little whiny now, but who'da thought an automatic would last this long, towing or not. Just replaced the water pump at 395k, and one wheel hub at 290k. Total repair costs thus far, about $300.
Like they've said below, unless you're towing heavy all the time, you'll never make your money back on a diesel. Higher purchase price, higher maintenance, higher fuel, higher repairs.
Like they've said below, unless you're towing heavy all the time, you'll never make your money back on a diesel. Higher purchase price, higher maintenance, higher fuel, higher repairs.
You cant go wrong with a diesel. What other people are telling you as far as gas engine life being better than a diesel, I think they are full of it. I know way more cummins going to 900,000 miles than I know of gas engines going that far. Dont get the Dodge V10. Go for the cummins. I get 22mpg empty and around 16mpg loaded.
The Cummins is still without doubt the best engine out there in a pickup truck. That said, it may not be the most economical for you...
I think unless you're doing a lot of rather heavy towing/hauling then you're probably just as well served with a smaller gas engine. A 360 would be adequate I think. I wouldn't have a V10 for nothing...
If those two are your options, go Cummins, all the way... but I think you could broaden your search somewhat.
Personally I get by fine with a Ranger for running around and lighter towing. If it gets heavy I have a heavy receiver and pintle on the tandem... so it does all the heavy hauling and towing.
I got so sick of endless fixing, high insurance and a bottomless gas tank on the old one ton we had... it just had to get retired.
I suppose somewhat like david... I don't much see the utility in the heavy 3/4 or ton trucks anymore...
Rod
I think unless you're doing a lot of rather heavy towing/hauling then you're probably just as well served with a smaller gas engine. A 360 would be adequate I think. I wouldn't have a V10 for nothing...
If those two are your options, go Cummins, all the way... but I think you could broaden your search somewhat.
Personally I get by fine with a Ranger for running around and lighter towing. If it gets heavy I have a heavy receiver and pintle on the tandem... so it does all the heavy hauling and towing.
I got so sick of endless fixing, high insurance and a bottomless gas tank on the old one ton we had... it just had to get retired.
I suppose somewhat like david... I don't much see the utility in the heavy 3/4 or ton trucks anymore...
Rod
IndianaRed
Member
Not saying you aren't right but...
Everyone that spoke to the value of the new gassers qualified their opinion with, "unless you're doing a lot of heavy towing", in which case we all agreed he should go diesel.
I didn't see one person say that a gas engine has a "better engine life" than diesel, as you claim they did.
The FACTS are: Higher purchase price, higher fuel cost, higher maintenance, and higher repair costs. So a person could indeed "go wrong" with a diesel, if they didn't really need one.
Do you NEED a diesel to pull the family 5th wheel trailer on vacations? Nope. Do you NEED a diesel to pull the tractor to the show a few times a year? Nope. Do you NEED a diesel to pull 15,000 pounds for your job everyday? Absolutely.
So read down through the other posts, and tell us all "Who's full of it", as you said.
Everyone that spoke to the value of the new gassers qualified their opinion with, "unless you're doing a lot of heavy towing", in which case we all agreed he should go diesel.
I didn't see one person say that a gas engine has a "better engine life" than diesel, as you claim they did.
The FACTS are: Higher purchase price, higher fuel cost, higher maintenance, and higher repair costs. So a person could indeed "go wrong" with a diesel, if they didn't really need one.
Do you NEED a diesel to pull the family 5th wheel trailer on vacations? Nope. Do you NEED a diesel to pull the tractor to the show a few times a year? Nope. Do you NEED a diesel to pull 15,000 pounds for your job everyday? Absolutely.
So read down through the other posts, and tell us all "Who's full of it", as you said.
Lloyd In South Carolina
Member
I disagree. Do the math, I've done it, The diesel pay back actualy comes quicker if you tow less. Fuel % gain for the diesels is higher when running unloaded. Yes, add the more expensive cost in fuel. What most people forget, don't forget the increased risidual value for the diesel on trade-in or resale. You get back a large percentage of the extra cost for the diesel.
Again, assumes you need a 3/4 ton or greater truck.
Its cheaper,,,,, but ya gotta invest more! And they perform better under load.
L.
Again, assumes you need a 3/4 ton or greater truck.
Its cheaper,,,,, but ya gotta invest more! And they perform better under load.
L.
Clodbuster
Member
Hold out for a Dodge/Cummins that is very nice and is a 1994 to 1998 1/2 as they have fewer electronics and are a good value.
Nothing wrong with a 360 or the V-10 but you can find a deal on a good older truck if you look hard enough.
Heck, corn and bean prices are up, just go lay down $55,000 for a new Chevy/Duramax........ My friend has one, very nice.
Nothing wrong with a 360 or the V-10 but you can find a deal on a good older truck if you look hard enough.
Heck, corn and bean prices are up, just go lay down $55,000 for a new Chevy/Duramax........ My friend has one, very nice.
Mike Aylward
Well-known Member
Jack, I have had two Dodge diesel pickups and am sold on them. I had a '96 and now have an '08. I might still be driving the '96 if someone hadn't drove out in front of me and totalled it. When I first bought the '96 I went through the same mental exercise as you, wondering if the diesel would be worth the extra money. I use my truck for personal use as well as towing. I have no doubt that buying the diesel was the best move. When the '96 was wrecked and the insurance company was figuring the value I found out the diesel engine added back about as much additional value to the truck as it cost me extra in the first place. In other words, there is very little if any depreciation in the value of the engine. This being said, the additional attributes of the diesel engine more than outweigh the disadvantages, in my opinion. When I went out to look for another truck I didn't even consider not getting a diesel. Mike
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
If you're going to buy a truck, you may as well quit playing and buy a REAL truck, something that'll do a REAL job. Otherwise, you're just buying a car with a pickup bed.
2004 International CXT
2004 International CXT
If you are getting 22 miles per gallon you have a friendly neighbor who's adding diesel to your tank at night. And I seriously have to question what your definition of "loaded" is.
To add a diesel to a new Dodge is a $7615 option, to add a 6 speed automatic its another $400.
Real observed mileage by automotive test sites puts mileage on the 2010 Ram 2500 "mega cab" with the Cummins at 15.7 MPG highway - EMPTY. They didn't bother reporting city or loaded mileage.
Its been a while since we had a Dodge Cummins trucks but we had several 2004 and earlier models. The older B series and the early 24 valve engines were supposed to get better fuel mileage - we averaged around 12 mpg overall (as we reported on our state IFTA returns).
Our current Fords and Chevy diesels average about 12 mpg overall - and increase of about 1 to 1.5 MPG from a decade earlier. We track our diesel pickups mileage on a monthly basis as we have to report fuel useage to the state.
What really hurts, we had a 1984 IH Eagle to move equipment - it was constantly over loaded but averaged about 4.9 to 5.1 MPG year in and year out. We finally replaced it in 2007 with a new Kenworth - current mileage is 3.9 to 4.2 pulling the exact same loads (still using the same trailers). The driver even says the older IH truck had more power (as evidensed by him tearing the axles out of it shortly before we sold it).
To add a diesel to a new Dodge is a $7615 option, to add a 6 speed automatic its another $400.
Real observed mileage by automotive test sites puts mileage on the 2010 Ram 2500 "mega cab" with the Cummins at 15.7 MPG highway - EMPTY. They didn't bother reporting city or loaded mileage.
Its been a while since we had a Dodge Cummins trucks but we had several 2004 and earlier models. The older B series and the early 24 valve engines were supposed to get better fuel mileage - we averaged around 12 mpg overall (as we reported on our state IFTA returns).
Our current Fords and Chevy diesels average about 12 mpg overall - and increase of about 1 to 1.5 MPG from a decade earlier. We track our diesel pickups mileage on a monthly basis as we have to report fuel useage to the state.
What really hurts, we had a 1984 IH Eagle to move equipment - it was constantly over loaded but averaged about 4.9 to 5.1 MPG year in and year out. We finally replaced it in 2007 with a new Kenworth - current mileage is 3.9 to 4.2 pulling the exact same loads (still using the same trailers). The driver even says the older IH truck had more power (as evidensed by him tearing the axles out of it shortly before we sold it).
Anonymous-0
Well-known Member
Sounds to me as if somebody was "loaded" when they figured your fuel mileage.
We've found that empty the diesel and gas trucks get about the same fuel mileage (Ford F250s) Powerstoke vs 5.4 4V engines - they both get about 15 MPG. We attribute it to the fact the diesel is hauling much more weight all the time and the tires wear a lot faster on the diesel - again the weight factor. When they get loaded up the diesel drops to 11 or so and the gas drops to about 9 - 10 but the diesel can walk away from the gas and handles hills much better.
I would not consider a used 2010 diesel. 2010 diesels and newer have the DPF filter to trap soot and they go through regeneration frequently. They use approximately 3-4 GALLONS of fuel to get rid of 50 grams of soot by putting raw diesel fuel into the exhaust to raise exhaust gas temperatures to over 1,000 degrees to destroy soot. They do this either by pulsing the injectors on the exhaust stroke or having a seperate injector ahead of the cat. So you can kiss goodbye to the fuel economy advantage of the diesel. Better not let the 2010 diesels idle or you will plug the filter and go into reduced power. I was told the DPF filters are $2,000 if they can't be cleaned! I was told diesel tractors are supposed to have this by 2012.
IndianaRed
Member
Yes, and you still need to change the oil and filters once in a while, or does that Cummins not require any of that silly stuff? Funny, I'm in and out of the Cummins plant in Columbus Indiana making parts deliveries all the time, never heard them talk about no maintenance necessary for those engines.
Did you ever find those posts where people were saying gas engines outlasted diesels? I looked again and didn't see any. Strange.
Did you ever find those posts where people were saying gas engines outlasted diesels? I looked again and didn't see any. Strange.
Brian Jasper co. Ia
Well-known Member
The Duramax is not built by Isuzu. Dmax Limited is a joint venture by the two companies with the engine being built in Ohio. That said, the Duramax just doesn't break. They also don't have that "Killer Dowel Pin" found in the Cummins.
You do need to change the oil and filters periodically.... but all the same, a lot of people change them far more often than they really need to on the diesels.
If you took that ISB engine in an AG/Industrial application... I think the recomended service interval for oil/filter is about 500 hours. If you figure that your average pickup truck had an average speed of 40 MPH over it's life... that would equate to
40 MPH * 500 H = 20,000 miles per oil change.
Consider that average highway use and it's load cycles are much easier, the environment is much cleaner... etc. then that 500 H/ 20000M interval is probably not that extreme.
What do they recomend? 5000 miles? Mabey 7-8000 miles?
I'd think there's a lot of middleground there... Most people could do a lot less oil changing than they do and lose nothing but the cost and time.
Rod
If you took that ISB engine in an AG/Industrial application... I think the recomended service interval for oil/filter is about 500 hours. If you figure that your average pickup truck had an average speed of 40 MPH over it's life... that would equate to
40 MPH * 500 H = 20,000 miles per oil change.
Consider that average highway use and it's load cycles are much easier, the environment is much cleaner... etc. then that 500 H/ 20000M interval is probably not that extreme.
What do they recomend? 5000 miles? Mabey 7-8000 miles?
I'd think there's a lot of middleground there... Most people could do a lot less oil changing than they do and lose nothing but the cost and time.
Rod
I have a 1990 Dodge W350 with the Cummins and a five speed. It has 365,000 miles. The last ten years it has been hooked to my flat bed goose neck trailer most of the time. The truck and trailer weight 14500 empty. With out the trailer I get 18-20 mpg. Loaded and pulling hard I get 10-12 mpg. Now I pull a lot of ten ton plus loads. I have never had any internal work done on the motor. I did have to rebuild the injection pump when they removed the sulfur. It has had two sets of injectors in it. I change the oil every 10,000 miles. I run a Oil scan every other change. It never has shown any problems.
The older Cummins don't have the electronics that the newer ones do. They are better on fuel but don't have quite the horse power of the newer ones. The newer ones do ride better. Mine rides like a heavy truck.
I would recommend a Dodge with a 5.9 cummins to anyone. They will outlast the bodies with normal care.
The older Cummins don't have the electronics that the newer ones do. They are better on fuel but don't have quite the horse power of the newer ones. The newer ones do ride better. Mine rides like a heavy truck.
I would recommend a Dodge with a 5.9 cummins to anyone. They will outlast the bodies with normal care.
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