keep an eye on what your kids are doing, 3yr old dies

My parents were at this "Picking in the Pines" music fest when the kids were fooling around in an adjacent construction area. The 3yr old child died of internal injuries from blunt trauma.
The child was awake and conscious but started turning "colour" shortly after the injury.The ambulance arrived in 10 minutes but the paramedics pharted around for 20 minutes asking questions, taking vitals, administration oxygen, applying a cervical collar and deciding what to do.Then 15 minutes more to the hospital.
In case of injury, just get get to the hospital, time is everything. Remember Lady Dianna, they let her bleed to death internally for 15 minutes after the ambulance arrived. Instead of hauling her to emerg asap.

http://www.crimealerts.net/huron.htm

http://toronto.ctv.ca/servlet/an/local/CTVNews/20100711/child-killed-turbine-100711/20100711/?hub=TorontoNewHome

http://www.winnipegsun.com/news/canada/2010/07/11/14678121.html

http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2010/07/11/14678051.html

http://www.thestar.com/news/gta/article/834600--tragic-weekend-around-gta

It is mandated by law to get all info and vitals before transporting to er. Things must be known like allergies to meds that may be administered and vital signs are very important as well. Please don t call it pharting around. If these things arent done the paramedics would lose their license.

If it's critical, time is of the essence. Why not try to get that information while driving to the hospital? Sorry, but losing a life is much worse than losing a license. ER Dr's. know more than paramedics and can do more. Not trying to come down on paramedics, they are important too. Dave

"It is mandated by law to get all info and vitals before transporting to er."

That is not true, there is no law that states that.
Having said that, yes, it is desirable to have as much of that information as you can, but many times it is impossible. I've picked up many people who were unconscious and had no one with them or no ID. You do what you can to fill in the blanks.
In cases of trauma, ideally you do not want to spend more than about 10 minutes on scene unless there are considerations like entrapment or being in an inaccessible location. Trauma cases need to go to a trauma center, because the usually will need surgical intervention. The first hour is called the "Golden Hour", because most patients have a much better chance of surviving if they can reach a Level 1 Trauma Center in that time.
I can't say whether or not the treatment given by the EMT's was right or wrong, but Buickanddeere should not make statements of how long they took to respond and how long they were on scene unless he knows the times as a matter of fact. Many times people have a distorted sense of time in these situations, and they are proven to be incorrect when the documentation is analyzed. Even Paramedics and Firefighters sometimes don't accurately know the time line unless they are actively documenting it. (Usually times are established by radio traffic or computer logging, marking units responding, enroute, on scene, transporting, etc.)
The skill level and experience may be a factor as well as the initial story they were told, again, no way for me to judge as I wasn't there.
It is also possible that it didn't matter what they did, the child may have had irreparable damage done in the accident, and nothing could have saved him.
But the title of the post says it all, these things are best prevented in the first place. I'm sure we all feel that there's nothing worse than losing a child.

My parents were there. My Mother a retired nurse finally told them to get a move on.
My Father is even more particular and fussy than myself on details. He was keeping time.
Myself, retired first responder on the Pickering Nuclear Emergency Response Team for ten years, eight as Captain.

I'm sure your father is fussy about details but before making judgments and advising people to provide their own transport, you should have the official times as logged by dispatch.

What are you saying? My Father is fussy on details then turn around and say check with dispatch for accurate time?
I've been on enough calls to know time at scene often gets dragged out too long. Unless there is spurting blood cpr/ar in progress the pace is leisurely.
When you deal with incidents several times a day, the sense of urgency wears off.
There are some types of injury with fading vital signs that can not wait. If there is no spinal trauma.
Getting to emerg instead of waiting will gain 10-30 minutes of that "Golden Hour".
An ambulance is not always the transportation of choice.

I've beeen in the system for over thirty years, and Protacals are the way you do it regardless of what any bystanders with a know it all attatude has to say about it.

I certianly do not disagree with your father, but the situation has to be kept in proper balance with the rules. I can't keep my big mouth shut either sometimes, but everyone must be on top of the game.

A suggestion of geting the information in route has a good ring to it-- other than the folks with the answers are usualy not alowed to step foot into the unit. Insurance--attorneys--

I'm not trying to be a smart rear end here, but I do take issues on bystanders giving advise, my preferance is usualy with the know it all's, is to please step back out of our way.

We are very fortunate in our comunity to have 99% plus, very thankful, and greatful for that matter, for our services, and they help out funding us real well.

I would suggest the ones with the coments grab a paper, and offer to take on the job.

As with everyting else, different services make different rules, and often by some folks that have never seen real blood, but have a chunk of paper saying the know alot because they read it out of a book. I don't need to explain that one either I'm sure.

Saturday our fire department probably got into some hot water, as one fireman directing trafic did not have the DOT state approved vest on, and was reported by a DOT inspector.

Sorry my feathers got ruffled, and I mean nothing personal with anyone, including bystanders, they can help often, and do so in our area.

Is there room for improvment? certianly, is there comon sence? not usualy. Can a issue be resolved by the hands on folks--heck no!

I don't want to start something with you either, but ask a ER dr if he has ever been to say a real car accident.

They are trained on what to do in a controled enviroment, and have no clur what is going on as a general rule. Our doctors say that very often when talking with us. They are very greatful for what we do on the fireline so to speak.

I say hurry, but do it right, and I'm old school.

Unfortunately the ole "CYA" rule seems to be the rule of choice these days. I believe many needless deaths happen because of it. I also believe if you save one life and get fired or sued for it , it was well worth it. There's a time and place for "rules" and then there's the time God is trying to tell you what to do. ( It's called "GUT FEELING" )Don't ask how I know this.

no argument either way as I know nothing about it but, THANK YOU for what you do. I'm a vet but we have so many serving society here and their war NEVER ENDS. THANK YOU.

There were medical people involved with this, my Mother the retired nurse.
In the ten years I was a first responder doing fire and ambulance combined. We knew if somebody received blunt trauma and was turning colour. We transported then and asked questions later because the casualty is bleeding to death internally.

(quoted from post at 10:38:26 07/12/10) It is mandated by law to get all info and vitals before transporting to er. Things must be known like allergies to meds that may be administered and vital signs are very important as well. Please don t call it pharting around. If these things arent done the paramedics would lose their license.

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Nonsense. It is pharting around. I spent 21 years on the streets in a mid-sized city, and saw a number of people bleed to death in the backs of ambulances. No one cared because "protocol" had been followed - the fact that the patient died was not relevant because the protocol was followed so the call was a success.

B and D is absolutely right in that you must take responsibility for the safety and care of your own. You do not have to let a nimrod in an ambulance uniform tell you what to do. Or a nimrod in a police uniform, either - there are plenty of nimrods in various uniforms to go around. Point is, take care of your own.

Kinda interesting, I just got back from our monthly meeting. It was a real big mistake for me to read your post out loud for our round table discusion.

Let me say this as nice as I can---ahhhh they were not real nice at all. Most wonderd why if someone had made coments, the cops did not escort the bystanders away. The EMS workers need no distractions when doing their job as rules say they are to do it.

Those rules change almost every day it seems, and often upset us to say the least. Some how we are expected to understand, and recalabrate our brains, as if we have nop other jobs.

To be fair, unless a person is at the scene, I should reserve coment at all. There are reasons sometimes that we are unaware of, and usualy shaped by attorneys. Often on the scene priorities are made because they have too. That isn't always reflected in the reports and documantations. Our crew runs short very often, and there is no time to document, and often a fireman is asked to do the documantations. Our scene often is not the same as if the patient is in a hospital with lots of help, not to mention a solid floor under the patient to roll the cart on.

Again, my intentions are not to insult, but times change protacals, and we can only hope it is for the best.

Our job is not to save lives, it is to protect us from attorneys and law suits, and also satisfy the state experts.

Years ago it was utmost important to load and run--not nowdays. Each ambulance probably has more stuff onboard now than the average hospital did years ago.

If I had to start training tomorrow, I would never in a million years tackle the requirments even in the entry stage. I think I heard 90 some hrs not including ride alongs, and praticals. That is just the first foot in the door training before you test out.

Training is good if it is with in reason of our yearly demands. Surprises come however, for instance removing someone from a grain bin. There is little doubt in my mind we would have killed ever person we tried to help. And I can not think of a farmer who would not kill the person he was trying to help.

By the way, I'm the one who shot my mouth off saying we did not need to spend the money to train on grain bins. I'm still greatful to have learned the proper way. I thought I knew everything about the subject.

My mother had grey hair by the time she was 29. Wanna guess why? Me and my brother. How we lived to see the age of ten each, beats me. Dig tunnels underground that go for 100' about 4' under with no support. Climbing trees while the other chops them down, because Bugs Bunny told us that we could simply step out of it just as it almost hit the ground without getting hurt. Playing cowboy and indians in the woods with pellet guns. The list goes on and on and on. I will never ever be able to repay our mother for what I did to her. My brother? That's between him and her.

Sorry to hear about this deadly accident. I'm certain the parents are kicking themselves.

Mark

Yup put a uniform on and now you are god and always right.
Up here we don't have all the ambulance chasers. The "Good Samaritan Act" covers responders and volunteers.
Around here patient condition used to be foremost and the lawyers 2nd. It's a sad world where " the operation was a success but the patient died" mentality.
Unfortunately many training manuals in the law enforcement, medical and nuclear industry. Are written by consultants that just "cut and paste" existing US documents. Then try to apply them in jurisdictions were different priorities exist.
Where is all of this were a few basic premises lost.
#1 Watch what your kids are messing around with.
#2 The quick and easy "temporary" support for the turbine tower was just a "comealong".The kids bounced it on the ground and the latch opened.
#3 If somebody is internally bleeding to death. You don't wait, obtain ER treatment with no delay.

I don't have a dog in this fight. I do know that you take care of your own first. What the hell where the parents doing letting a THREE YEAR old out of their sight!!!!! My youngest is fourteen this fall and if we go to a large group of people she is with me or her mother. Too many crazies out there today to take a chance.
On the rescue people,90% are great and have great training. The other 10% should not be let out of their houses. That makes a big problem out in the country because it seems like the 10% are the ones that have the time to always be on call. Example of this happened to me just last year. My oldest son and I had his two boys with us at a little league baseball game. His three year old was eating a hot dog. He bite off too much and choked. My son grabbed him and did the Heimlich on him. It was not working completely, but it did let him breathe a little. While he was doing that I was getting us down out of the bleachers. As soon as we got on the ground I grabbed him and started working on him. I have had full ARMY field medic training plus was a full paramedic before all of the BS requirements. I just about had him out of the woods when some A hole grabbed me and tried to pull me off of MY GRANDSON. GUESS WHO???? Some body had call 911 and the local rent-a dick shows up with his side kicks the local emergency dip wads. I decked him and my son told the other dip wads to stay the hell away. I got my grand son's air way clear and we took him the four miles to the hospital before the first Ambulance got to the ball field. They tried to charge me with assault on a peace officer. He was not on duty and was not in uniform. When I turned around all I saw was some one getting in my way.
It took me five grand and a year of fighting with them to finally win when it went to jury trail. It cost the town double that in legal cost. Plus they lost a lot of annual income too. My whole family always supported the fire department and Rescue team with healthy donations. I don't mean twenty dollars either. After that we all told them to go take a HIKE when ever they came around with their hand out.

So when you're making out reports and doing everything to "protocol", does spelling matter? I know it sure does when you get a traffic ticket. If the cop gets anything wrong, the ticket gets thrown out if the person notices. There's at least half a dozen spelling mistakes in your post above. Not sure I'd want you giving the Dr's. pertinent info. they might need.
Considering it was a 3 yr. old, how are they going to get any information? Even though I'm not an EMT and only have limited emergency training, I can't think of any instance where the parent wouldn't be allowed to be alongside their young child enroute to the hospital except maybe if an air ambulance were used. Up here if you have more formal medical training such as a nurse, etc. you are required to give assistance if you are a first responder. You can actually be charged if you don't. In this case with a 3 yr. old, get them to the hospital ASAP. Dave

Ive worked for a large fire dept for 25 years and as a paramedic for 18 years of that. We try to limit our scene time to no more than 10 minutes on trauma pt's. On most trauma pt's if you are busting your hump it will take you 10 minutes. If there are 50 hysterical bystanders and people that used to be a nurse at a vet clinic one time it will take longer. The worst people that can be there are nurses and drs unless they have recent emergency room experience. Most have no clue in emergency medicine. I dont know if you have paramedic's or emt's on your ambulance service but if you have a paramedic service close by and you load a trauma pt in a car and surprise an e.r. with a critical trauma pt, then you are an idiot.
There is always going to be someone in a crowd hollering about an ambulance "sitting there for 30 min" when in reality it was maybe 10 min. And they are busting their tail trying to quickly stabilize a pt so they will make it to a hospital and talking to a dr. If the child was hurt that bad and you dont have a trauma center close by then that kid probably never had a chance. Most hospitals are not set up to treat severe trauma pts. Most of these pt's need surgery and most local hospitals cant afford to have surgical teams standing by 24/7 like a trauma center.
Emotions always run high when a child is injured especially around a mob. Nobody wants to see harm come to a child including the guys that were on that ambulance. I promise you that they did everything in their power to help that child with whatever training and experience they had. They more than likely have children of their own. Bottom line is there will always be some know it all running around saying stuff like "he's turning colour" (whatever t.f. that means) and expect miracles from someone because they have a uniform on. Im sorry for the loss of the child. Ive made several runs like that and it is terrible for everybody involved including the guys on that ambulance that second guess every move they made on that run for a month even though more than likely nothing would have changed the outcome. Where were you during all of this with your training? If you could have picked this kid up and rushed him to the hospital and saved him then why didnt you? If you are trained you had a responsibility to act. I know you werent worried about liability because there are no lawyers where you live and the good samaritan acts allows you to do whatever you want. right? Put up or shut up!

This probably seems as if I'm arguing with you, but that is not the intent at all.

You mentioned the Good Samaritan Act, and it sure had good intentions, but has been smacked around a little more than what is ever let on. We have been told that if you exceed your training, it does not apply. If a person is disabled for life, you can bet the insurance company is going after some one or some unit.

And somehow AIDS patients are held on a cloud, regardless who suffers.

Bottom line is this all costs money to defend ourselves. I was named in a lawsuit, I was not at the scene, rather sleeping in my bed. After the third round, the guy died of AIDS. When you are dying, what do you have to lose in a law suit?

Like I stated before, I'm a load and go sometimes, just not always. We have a super well trained crew, yet we have a crew member that is on a higher --rule the kindom ---state of mind. But we have that in all areas, weather it is poly -ticks, old tractor dudes, and for sure the mother in law types.

Another thing many folks--no this case perhaps--assume the EMS knows all the facts they bystander has witnessed. It's not easy walking into something cold, and I have made a butt head out of myself by assuming on many calls. Often the facts are not brought forth for days. Many times things are very confusing because of my assumptions just knowing some of the facts, and not all of them. This (discusing a case) to by the way is against all policys. Yep!, discusing calls among our own crew members. By the way, as a footnote to comunicating calls with in our crew members---we all remove the tags off our mattresses also.

Those crew members probably did indeed screw up, perhaps poor judgment calls. If you whitness that sort of thing, why not ask questions to the crew members in a decent tone at a different time. They may or may not have a good reason.

Our crew, and every crew I know of has definate, very exact ---(To the second) times recorded on every run, every voice that comes across the radio, and coment made. These times are reviewed by our crew, and inspected, by the state
and that is for every call made. If anything is out of line, we get a naughty note in our file. They don't beat around the bush with nice words, nore do the add sugar. If anything is below a 98% or less, all heck breaks loose.

Our insurance company can not allow poor run sheets, or poor responce times.

You folks must understand also that there are so many limits placed on emergency responders it makes ones head hurt. I got in alot of hot water climbing a water tower without a harness for a victum having a heart attack. The harness is ten to fifteen munites from the scene. I was recently informed that under no curcumstance will any resonce team climb the water tower for any reason. They haven't heard the last of me yet on that one. Our motto is we can only hope the folks who make the rules will be the next client, so they can get a real hands on education.

Going after a EMS person, is kinda like going after the Amish -- not real popular.

There are too many factors to have a one answer fits all. The "correct" action depends on the type of incident, the quality of EMS folks on scene, the quality of the responding medics, the transport time, etc. etc. Any event like that should have a qualified EMS staff working the event that will have a complete report ready for the paramedics when they arrive so care can be transferred efficiently and completely, including things like complete vital signs (taken at least every five minutes for a trauma), patient medications, past medical history, and so on. That being said, it's not uncommon for paramedics to ignore the EMTs on scene and re-do the entire assessment - sometimes justified due to crappy EMTs on scene, sometime unjustified due to arrogant paramedics. But reducing on-scene time should always be a priority, always. If information gathering is delaying transport, you got a problem, but one with a solution - that's what radios are for - let the PD or EMS that stays on scene get the info you need and update the transport team and/or ER.

Working as an EMT in town with relatively short transport times, there have been instances when we could have used medics but didn't call them as intercepting with them would have doubled transport time. But if they're already on scene, then they're in charge, and they're almost always very welcome. I've been in the back of the truck watching someone's throat close up - that can make even a short transport seem like hours - and I've been very glad that there were medics on board. But like all EMTs, the medics are all different as well - some do "phart" around needlessly, some will correctly push you to transport ASAP.

But all of this is why it's important to have good people in EMS - you can have all the protocols you want, but when you're in an uncontrolled situation, and it's really critical, you need people who can think on their feet and act.

There are some things that are probably best run by whoever can yell the loudest, but a critical trauma scene is probably best run by those with up to date training, experience, and authorization with hospital protocols.

BandD, do you know if they were EMT Basics or Paramedics? And what kind of Ambulance unit? Volunteer, fulltime FD, Private service? You could say something to their medical director too and get some answers.

So why are you mad at the fire dept. and rescue squad, when the cops are the ones you had a problem with??

He's mad because they should have been clairvoyant and somehow knew ahead of time that he was once an ARMY medic.

All they saw was a frantic old man on top of a choking boy... 99 times out of 100, the person is simply freaking out and adding nothing of value to the situation, and must be removed forcibly from the situation so that the life can be saved.

I wasn't there. My parents were. Can't you read and remember the facts?
The child's abdomen was turning purple and tender.Extremities were turning cold and white.
All that was left to do was erect a neon sign saying internal bleeding and shock.

I know this is getting a long ways down the threads, but as far as spelling, well that isn't my high points in life. Have I misspeled words, heck yes, and probably always. I can't spell simple words, let alone medicines etc. The subject has never been addressed as long as I can remember. If it was a problem, no one on our crew would be so rude as to point it out, we don't play the I'm smarter than you game--it is a cancer in any group--there is no place for it, and will not be tolerated by anyone, regardless who they think they are.

Ever tried to read a doctors writting? They could misspell every word, and no one would know.

I also catch alot of flack about reports not being completed, but no one dare make issue of it, simply because they may be the next one laying on the ground, or their kin folks. Many times it is written on a glove, then transfered when enough help gets there. Everyone in the chain understands certian issues, and we all try to do our best, regardless who rips on us, and that has only happened a few times. A person must forgive a emotional bystander, they are usualy not out there to complain.

We sometime hear of someone making coments about being gung hoe, etc. If it makes someone feel better about themselves, so be it. We have a large turn over, and it is almost imposible to get new staff, and keep them after a few unplesant calls. I don't blame them, we are all different.

We welcome anyone with any training if we need help, but if we have enough of a crew, nurses get in the way. They are good at what they do, but our crew kinda knows what the other one is thinking. Never are we short with anyone, they have good intentions, and we are very greatful. We all try to keep got PR.

There are times when moms, dads, and friends do indeed hinder the patients care, we totaly understand the emotions--we get tears also--. If a mom is going off the deep end, someone must take the time to care for the mom. So to say parents always get to ride along--no not always.

Parents and bystanders don't always give acurate information, perhaps not intentional. Neither does the folks that drink adult beverages. Teenagers often lie about their injuries, as if somehow they will not be in as much trouble if they are not hurt. Teenagers often lie about how many are in the vehickle, seat belts, the old standard--- only a few drinks. Often they lie about who was driving. Seat belt bruses don't lie.

Ever notice how often the same questions are asked? Facts are often important.

At one time we were asked to take a picture of every wrecked vehickle, now that just ticked me off--wasting time. After talking with a doctor, he said sometimes a report may not document a star on the windshield, air bad deployment, and the extent of damage to the auto.

This case could for sure be a bad example of the system (done by a human) but overall most services do a great job, by in my opinion, great folks. And any nurse that wants to tell them they did it wrong -- well lets just say nurses are human also. And if anyone thinks for one moment we don't second guess ourselves, and beat on ourselves---yea it happens often.

While I'm venting, everyone who thinks they do not need a helmet, seat belts, life jackets, and get drunk before they get hurt, etc. Well, why should EMS folks try to save their lives if they do not at least try to take the most basic precaution?

I've got alot to learn as does everyone, but I will guarentee our crew is doing their best despite screw ups that happen on every call.

Someone comented on a EMS person must render aid--that is true, but it sure screws up my dream of my ex-wife riding with her attorney---------Well yea, you guesed the rest.

Our medical director is responsable for every one of us, and we often talk about how he is opening up a broad side to a lawsuit.

HEY mkirsch give a time and place and I WILL SHOW YOU how an "old" man can kick your A$$. HE!! yes I was ------ off. This happened in a town of less than five hundred that I have lived it my whole life. I had been off of the active rescue squad for a while but still went and helped them with their training.
NO the problem is that too many of these small towns scrap the bottom of the barrel when it come time to hire Town Police. Most of them are Real cop want-a-bes. They can't get in as a state trooper or on a county sheriff's department. So they get on at the small towns working for minimum wage but get to be in "charge". Just a bunch of little HITLERS waiting for their chance.

The two rescue people standing there where trained by me, twenty years before, when they first started out. Did either one of them step up and help keep Deputy Dog from being stupid???? NO.
Why the fire department? Well they just happened to be having their annual cook out. TEN miles away at a local lake. THEY took all of their equipment so they could display it. That is why it took them almost twenty minutes to respond five blocks from their station house.
What would have happened if I had not been able to get my grandson's air way cleared??? The first responders did not have any equipment with them. What about the other people in this whole town that might have needed help??
Unfortunately common sense is in short supply in too many cases. I will admit that I was hopping mad at the time. It all could have been handled very easily shortly after it all was over BUT no way here at least. I was ready and very willing to apologize. I did not act the best when he tried to pull me away. MR. OFF DUTY had to press charges and show how big of a man he was. What he did do was bite off more than he could chew. He got fired with cause. The review board found too many other things he had done to let him stay in law enforcement. Maybe it was best it was me and not some body who could/would not defend them selves.

What if YOU (not you specifically) are the Nimrod? I've had many times when the family are idiots and get in the way. Yes, there are bad EMS providers, but most often a very small minority.