Water heater problem check my thinking

old · May 20, 2010

Well say it is the lower element. If I where to unhook it from power and the breaker does not trip then that would tell me that it is the problem right?? If it still trips with it out of the circuit then I have a problem some place else is my thinking in line??
Thanks

NorminN.B. · May 20, 2010

Hey, Old, I'm not an electrician, by any means, but I dont think a bad element will trip a breaker unless the wire is shorting out. An element is either good or its broken and it wont work at all. Hope this helps.

Dave_Id · May 20, 2010

Do a resistance test on the element.

JackT · May 20, 2010

Hi Old. Do you have a model number for your heater? Maytag's website has parts and service manuals that can be downloaded if you have the number.

I'm inclined to agree with DH in Carolina. Its probably not a burned out element but a problem with the thermostat. Not sure, but the button you're pushing may well be an "over temperature" limit switch and not an electrical circuit breaker. If an element were shorted the breaker would pop right away after resetting, not after a few hour delay. Why not just get an LP stock tank heater, crank it up, and you and the Missus talk your baths in the tank with the cows looking on?

John T · May 20, 2010

But how about if theres a short such that the resistance is wayyyyyyyy lower then if such werent present??? Then it would NOT be an open circuit but instead just a circuit of much less resistance (via the shorting path of rust or lime or calcium etc) which in turn draws excess current sufficient to trip the protective device??????????????? Those elements have x resistance per unit length in that loop but if a short shorts out most of it THE BREAKER TRIPS

What if one element were open and the other tried to draw excess current to satisfy the thermostat?? Perhaps that could trip a breaker!!

Just a few thoughts on the subject to toss into teh mix

John T

John T · May 20, 2010

I tend to agree UNLESS the good element is drawing too much current in an attempt to satisfy the thermostat!!!!! (Depends on how shes circuited and thermostatically controlled) Buttttttttt if unhooking one element makes her stop tripping (perhaps the water wont get hot enough???) then Id say youre sure onto something and thats the FIRST thing I would replace.

let us know Rich

John T

old · May 20, 2010

Well I do know the way this water heater works is the top element comes on then after it gets the water to a point the lower one takes over. Water when if warms up does not seem to be to hot or in other words it is the normal temp. The breaker I am pushing is in the top cover area but controls all of the power

old · May 20, 2010

Well lets see if I can explain my thinking and how most water heaters work or did when I played with them a long time ago.
Water is cold, you turn it on and the top element comes on. Then when the water gets just so hot the bottom element comes on and the top one turns off. So if the bottom element is bad/shorted out when it turns on it trips the breaker. In my area we have so much lime that we have problems with elements all the time but most just burn out and do not work. But yes I will give the taking the wire off and see what happens a try before I buy any parts.

Kyle Fenstermaker · May 20, 2010

Make sure the breaker is off! Disconnect the wires from the element. With the wires disconnected from the element, use a multimeter and check the resistance between both screws of the element. The resistance should be over 10K ohms. If the resistance is below 10K ohm, the element is bad.

Anonymous-0 · May 20, 2010

you could ohm meter the elements. and also one side only and to ground.that would tell you if it is shorted to ground by rust or deposits.

rbel · May 20, 2010

Come on Old you are in south misery. just replace the heater if it is 10 years old. (bound to be ate up with lime by now) Other wise by 2 new elements, open her up clean it out good and put the new elements in.

old · May 20, 2010

Well I know it is not shorted to ground just did a resistance check on it. But I also do not know how many ohms I should get across the element its self. I did do a reading there and got 130.? ohms and that is on a 240 volt 3800 watt element.

Anonymous-0 · May 20, 2010

(quoted from post at 11:11:02 05/20/10) Come on Old you are in south misery. just replace the heater if it is 10 years old. (bound to be ate up with lime by now) Other wise by 2 new elements, open her up clean it out good and put the new elements in.

Think so too........ Prolly be surprised what comes out. That bottom element can cause plenty of funny things to happen once it gets a lime buildup along with all the sludge that is settling from everywhere else (to the point that you could get shocked just touching the tank near it).

Dave

Anonymous-0 · May 20, 2010

The resistance should be around 15 ohms.
3800w / 240v =15 ohms
ohms law
If you have 150 ohms
240 x 150 = 36000 watts

tjdub · May 20, 2010

Hey old, I don't even know if it's that complex of a system inside there. On my water heater, each element has it's own thermostat which you can set to whatever you want. One of them is always going to working harder than the other unless they're both set exactly the same. On my heater, the bottom element died last year. I bought a replacement element, but it's a screw in kind and it's caked with so much rust and lime I couldn't get it loose. I eventually took the replacement element back to the store and just disconnected the bad element and put wire nuts on the leads.

If your tank is only 50 gallons, this probably isn't going to work well for you in the long term unless you take some quick or cold showers.

huntingreen59 · May 20, 2010

Are you getting extra hot water? If so that would mean the controls are not shutting proplerly and that would cause the temperature sensetive breaker to trip. If the water is not too hot I would imagine the control is bad. Just like any other breaker that starts tripping when it is not overloaded. Happens when they get OLD. Usually the bottom element is the one that does all the work. You can check resistance on and element and get contunity and it still be bad. Not hard to pull the element and take a look at it if you turn the water off. I have changed many of them and never drained the water heater. Just have to have everything ready to go when you pull the old one. You could have a bad lower element and a bad control at the top. What is the temperature of the water coming out and is it near the temperature setting on the upper control. If not you are getting an ealy trip due to the control being bad. Remember when the upper control is satisfied then it completes the circuit and allows the lower element to work. As long as cold water is entering the bottom of the water heater and you are not using enought water to push the cold water to the upper section of the heater the bottom element is the one working. Check your water temperature. Compare it to the upper thermostat setting.

Janicholson · May 20, 2010

There is no Breaker on the unit, that must be the task of the supply circuit!! from the distribution panel.
The button you are pushing is a high temp limit switch (like on a furnace, it is a bi-metal disk with contacts.) They go bad and snap off when the temp is normal.
The upper control is (usually) not adjustable.
The lower control adjusts the final heating cycle temperature of the unit. The top control does (as you point out) switch off, then allow the lower unit to turn on.
The elements should have between 10 and 15 ohms of resistance with all wires disconnected.
There should be no resistance to ground (tank) from either. The resistance you measured Is way too high to work. Good luck, Jim.

Brian Love · May 20, 2010

had the same thing happen changed element and then bottom thermostat took care of it

Anonymous-0 · May 20, 2010

Old is the breaker tripping as soon as you turn it on? if not and it only trips after alot of Hot water useage it is going to be the Lower element or a T-Stat is bad on the top element.
alot of heater elements will get pin holes in them and cause the short. when the thermostat goes bad on the top element you end up with an overload with both elements drawing current at the same time.
you can check the thermostat with a continuity tester keep the leads on the terminals and changing the temp setting hi to low useually if you dont hear it click its bad.
the lower t-stat bad would either cause you to run out of hot water quickly or come out scalding hot. but would not cause an overload because it wont get power untill the top elemet is satisfied top element is nothing more than a 3 way switch.
if you have been running out of hot water too soon it is the lower element.
FYI if you cant get the screw in element loose use a hammer and chisel on the edge tap it firmly counter clock wise to break it loose I have repaired lots of them that way
I am a Master Electrician
Hope it helps if it is not leaking rebuild it the parts are all under $20.00 each.

Anonymous-0 · May 20, 2010

Old is the breaker tripping as soon as you turn it on? if not and it only trips after alot of Hot water useage it is going to be the Lower element or a T-Stat is bad on the top element.
alot of heater elements will get pin holes in them and cause the short. when the thermostat goes bad on the top element you end up with an overload with both elements drawing current at the same time.
you can check the thermostat with a continuity tester keep the leads on the terminals and changing the temp setting hi to low useually if you dont hear it click its bad.
the lower t-stat bad would either cause you to run out of hot water quickly or come out scalding hot. but would not cause an overload because it wont get power untill the top elemet is satisfied top element is nothing more than a 3 way switch.
if you have been running out of hot water too soon it is the lower element.
FYI if you cant get the screw in element loose use a hammer and chisel on the edge tap it firmly counter clock wise to break it loose I have repaired lots of them that way
I am a Master Electrician
Hope it helps if it is not leaking rebuild it the parts are all under $20.00 each.

john *.?-!.* cub owner · May 20, 2010

Normal operation of a water heater is for the top element to come on and warm the water in the top of unit, and then the thermostat shuts that one off and turns the bottom element on till it's thermostat gets warm enough. The most common problem is for calcium to build up in the bottom of the heater and causes the bottom element to overheat and the side rupture causing a short to ground via the calcium and water. Depending on where in the element the failure occurs it may trip the breaker in the box, or may cause the water to get too hot with time, or just quit working. another thing that will cause the breaker to trip is if the top thermostat goes bad and allows both thermostats to come on at the same time, but this is rare.

old · May 20, 2010

Yep and I did unhook the lower element and the breaker has not tripped so I know I need a new lower element

old · May 20, 2010

I have the impact socket in the correct size to fit the element so getting it out is no problem. I did my test and have hot water as long as the lower element is not hooked up just like I figured. Oh by the way I'm an ex-navy ET so I understand zap-u-trons LOL

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