Lanse welding your truck frame

I made a post on your original thread about welding your frame.I see where some say you cant do it,but I have welded frames with 7018 and you can weld with 7018 good enough if you do like I told you in the other post.

MIG would be better,but I know 7018 will work.You might not want to run it on the Interstate,but around the farm its only risking you right?

People seem to try and say a lot about this and probably never did it.What is most dangerous is welding unibody with a stick and a bad welder too.There are people who used to weld cars together with brazing rod and that is scary.What is true though is that the late model cars metal is more brittle and MIG welding works better for that.It can still be welded with a stick and the best way is with 7018.6011 would work,but if you arent a good welder your 6011 welds might crack.7018 might crack too,but if it does it will be right next to where you welded it and if you grind a v in it and weld it good it wont crack the second time as bad.

Cutting the frame at an angle is a good way as long as you clamp it back with an angle iron on 2 sides you should get it close enough to work.

I didn't see the origional post but if you are going to weld a frame then you need to fish plate it on at least one side. I know of many, many heavy trucks (dunp trucks in particular)that have had cracked frames welded back together and plated without any problems. The main thing is to make the plate as tall as the side of the frame so the welds are running the length of the plate at the very top and bottm of the frame and extend the plate past the crack on each side a distance equal to at least the height of the frame. If you V and weld the crack and then do this the repair should be at least as strong, if not stronger than the original frame alone was. Good luck.

If a weld cracks right beside it, is a sign of a poor weld, often undercut is the culprit or too much buildup of the weld causes a notch effect. Lanse doesn't have enough experience to be welding a frame together, even if the truck is only used on the farm. I'm curious why MIG is recommended on a car/truck frame and 7018 isn't. Maybe you need a higher tensile XX18 rod than 7018 and the MIG wire is also higher a higher tensile than 70,000 psi? Dave

Hello NCWaine,
You are right about the fish plate. After the welding is completed the fish plates, one for each side, in and out, they needs to be bolted on for highway use.
Welding the frame is O.K. for farm use, but i would weld a plate in on both sides.
Guido.

Its because the metal is more brittle.Farm machinery is also like that from the late 1970s or early 1980s.High carbon steel I seem to remember.

Also welders have told me about the cracking and grinding and welding it back and Ive done it too.Also the higher strength rod is not going to help if its also low hydrogen,it will crack just as bad.

I have welded a lot on trailers and truck frames and farm machinery and stuff and you can weld it with 7018,but MIG works better.For some reason MIG stands up better for that kind of metal.

Also it will help it if you weld it as cool as you can,not burning it in.I learned from other welders showing me this stuff over years of working on trucks mostly.

What you say about undercut is true,but in this case 7018 is not so much undercutting as it is that the metal is stiff and something about the mixture makes it real hard with more heat and thats what makes it break easier.Thats what they told me and Ive seen it proved to me that was true.

Believe me its a pain to roll a big MIG around through a maze of air lines and broke down trucks to weld a 4 inch weld on something,but knowing it would last better than using the buzz box many times I have done it.Its a pain to weld with a MIG if you dont know how,and its also not easy to get where you need it,but everything on a truck that you can weld with it,its better to use a MIG on it,especially thinner metal.

After thinking about this for a while there are lots of different welders.I inspected welds for a while and I remember some that I had to send back even now that were bad for somebody who had worked there longer than me!You and I and most people like to make welds that are as good as we can.However there are people welding stuff,professionally,that are poor welders.Also even a good welder can make a bad weld.While it would be nice to spend an hour teaching Lanse how to weld thats just not possible for me.Hopefully he will find some kid that knows how to weld some and show him.I wouldnt worry about him not doing a good job at it if he does it like I told him,and grinds out any bad spots and welds them over again.I bet you would be shocked at what they called a weld on the side of a battleship in WW2 if they were being shot at and trying to keep it from sinking.Look around and you might find a picture of something like that.I dont think it took me 30 minutes to learn how to weld with 7018 flat on a buzz box when I was right out of High School and 18 years old.Its the wanting to do it that is what makes it happen.If he wants to do it bad enough he will.He might try welding it and change his mind.I trust he will do good and weld it good enough to work.He might be a natural welder and do as good as anybody can.Or even if he does an ugly job and grinds out the bad and does it over until its good,he will be alright.I say he can do it,and I bet he does a good job even not having any experience because he wants to learn.I was like that when I was his age and my welds are still standing on some buildings and some bridges and some skyscrapers and I was 18-22 years old when I did those welds.Even Railroad cars first.You have this view that a person has to go to some school or be an apprentice and its just not true at all.There are people that do,and people that watch.Lanse is a doer type person.

If you dont know,this is how you do that.Also I worked for RUAN Truck Leasing for 3 years.They had a shop where they took several wrecked trucks and made one truck out of them.With 10,000 trucks on the road fror years they always had wrecks to rebuild.They cut and welded frames and this is what they told us.When you put that fish plate on taper the ends.Plus keep all of your weld at least an inch from the radius of the curve where the frame is bent for the flanges.In other words an inch from the top and and inch from the bottom when you get done welding it.So say an inch and a quarter from the top of the frame and an inch and a quarter from the bottom of the frame is as big of a plate as you can use.Then I seem to remember it had to have 4 bolts on each side of the frame it was holding together,with the ends of the plate tapered off instead of a square plate,kind of a long hexagon.Plus no welds across the end of the fish plate just the top and bottom.Something about that weld on the end would cause a crack.Also welding too close to the radius will cause a crack.
Just like everything else,people that do the job every day know a lot about it.I could have welded on frames my whole life and not learned those things about it,but by working with those people I learned that stuff and it works.

On a smaller frame just a smaller scale of the same thing should probably hold it.

A plate on one side is enough.I have welded grain truck frames and didnt even use a plate in the 1970s with 7018 and they held and are still holding as I still see some of them at the elevator at harvest time.Sometimes putting too much stuff on things like that makes it break right past where you weld it because all that stiffness makes it break somewhere.2 plates might be alright in this case,but most of the time you want to keep your fix flexible.Sometimes you dont if it was too weak to start with.7018 done right and ground down flush is as strong as it was new for the right kind of metal.

Trucker 40,

I am not about to dispute anything you have said here, as I think your advice is right on. But as I recall, Lance is about to acquire an S10 frame, which I think (but not sure) is pretty thin metal, maybe 14 gauge. And I think the frame is box section or maybe box section and flange section hybrid. I have welded on Corvette frames (rust replacement sections just forward of the rear axle) and frame repair on our old Loadstar 1600 grain truck. At the experience level I now have (repair farm welding 50 years), I can do a satisfactory job on either. But Lance is new to this and 7018 is a bugger to strike an arc with if you have no experience. It is also one of the easiest rods to burn through thin metal making big holes probably not repairable with his level of experience. I have been a welding instructor for our new guys in our Blacksmith Guild. I can teach them to be basic welders in 8 hours, but I start them with 6013 flat position, then step up to 6011 (flat) in rough and rusty steel, and then finally teach them to use 7018 in high carbon steel. And if Lance has no arc welding experience, I recommend that he follow the same progression of rods on practice metal before he welds frame.

He should also know that heating up the 7018 rods for a few hours will make them easier to use and give better results. Make a rod oven, or use a heat lamp (or use Mom's oven set on low, if she is not home). This is much less of a problem if the rods are brand new, but if they have been hanging around the shop for a few months or years, they absorb moisture from the air and can get pretty ornery.

If he can't find any old timer like you or me to help him get started, them maybe he can look up (internet) his closest ABANA chapter and ask for some old timer to give him a few hours of hands-on welding instruction (may even be no cost....I have done this a few times for young guys).

I want him to be successful if he tries this.

Paul in MN

Big truck frames are lengthened and shortened all the time. Properly welded, they don't need bolts as well. Some frames are heat treated and aren't supposed to be welded because it affects the heat treating. Stick welding is the preferred choice for truck frames but often higher tensile xx18 rods are used. Dave

Not trying to discourage Lanse but he just plain doesn't have enough experience to be welding a truck frame. Half an hour or 8 hours of training isn't going to change that fact. I guarantee that you didn't do any critical welds on skyscrapers or bridges when you were 18 or 22 or probably ever without having any formal training or qualifications. Welding is the most tested trade there is and has been for a long time. That is why welders have to go through apprenticeships and formal training. There are some very poor, so called, qualified welders though. There are a lot people who don't have a lot of training that can weld good but not on commercial structures. Wanting to do it and wanting it to hold are 2 different things. Dave

I've welded many truck frames. Cut many trucks in half and extended, or added replacement half-frames. If you add gussets or fish-plate with added steel you can use mild rod and it will still be stronger then original. If fish-plating isn't possible, 7018 has worked fine on any frame I've done. I've never had one crack and all I've use is an AC/DC arc-welder. I added half-frames twice to my 69 Dodge Power Wagon and still use it as a farm truck for firewood. Never cracked, just rusted out. Also had to replace three feet of frame on my 92 Dodge with Cummins diesel. The frames tend to rot out where that long fuel tank lays against the frame-rail. I've done a lot of towing with it, and all was done with 7018.

I agree with some of that.7018 is hard to get started,but I said 7018 AC which is a little easier.There was no 7018 AC when I started welding and I hated it,but had to use it.I have welded a lot since then and still have trouble with it,but thats what you weld a frame with.

I though it was a frame like a pickup has only smaller.You are probably right,its the thinner box frame.Well it will be harder to do,but 7018 AC is still what you want to use with a buzz box.

I said 6011 would work.The only thing about 6011 is that if you dont know what you are doing with it you can burn up a piece of metal to where its almost not fixable.By using 7018 you can grind it off and do it again,over and over.

So he is going to do it anyway.I told him 7018 so he has something to work with if its not good the first time or 2.I want him to succeed as well.If he has friends in AG class or if he has AG as a subject himself,he can ask the teacher to show him how to weld,or many other things,but a kid motivated like he is can probably find a way to do it.I can remember when I was a kid and my brother gave me a car.A 1956 Ford with a 6 cylinder engine and a bad transmission.I was 13.By the time I was 16 I had put 2 or 3 transmissions in it and put a 352 police interceptor engine in it from a wrecked cop car and had to modify the firewall to get it in there.Later I found out that it would have fit without working on the firewall but I had the motor mounts in backwards.I dug through junk yards and read books and bought parts from other kids and had friends whose dad had a race car and went and talked to guys with race cars who welded up a small block Chevy engine block with 6011 while I was there buying fenderwell headers from them.When I was 17 I worked for a farmer and we put a 396 Chevy engine in a Massey Harris 44.I welded the weight box on the front of it and I couldnt make a better looking weld now,and that was maybe the first time I welded anything except for AG class.Our Ag teacher was a good welder and showed us how to weld with different rods and even a torch.

If you are a good welder you can weld thin metal with 7018.I can weld thin metal with 7018 better than with about anything else except a MIG.So I dont buy your argument about not welding this thin box frame with something else or that you even have to be a good welder to do it.Its just another problem he will need to deal with,and I think he can handle it.He probably will be a good welder too if he practices some and has somebody to show him a little.I hope he asks questions on here and looks at videos on You Tube about welding if he cant find anybody to help him.

I have welded a lot of truck frames and never had one crack either,but I have had welds made with 7018 crack on other stuff.7018 is the right rod for truck frames.On other stuff like high carbon steel used in newer cars and farm machinery it will crack.Also on newer trailers like steel hopper bottoms and stuff like that,it will crack.Not always,but sometimes.When it does if you V it and weld it again it probably will last.That brittle steel is harder to weld with 7018.I think 6011 might work better on that stuff if done right,but it can crack too.
Even heat treated truck frame is weldable with 7018,and it can and does crack,because I drove a truck that had the frame crack where it was welded,but I didnt weld it,it came that way bought used.It was fixed by an Army welder and he used 7018 and the truck is still being used by a farmer around here.

Actually you are wrong about this.I didnt need to pass a welding test to weld on Sky Scrapers.I did have about 6 months experience welding though.I was taught on the job.The way they did it was there were 5 Vietnam Vets working there as welders.So they start the new guy,me on one side,another new guy on the other side, on one end of the assembly line which was with an air arc cutting bevels on a warped piece of metal that had hard surface on it.After beating this warped up piece into place and having the real welder tack it,they gave me a hood and I watched the real welder weld a couple of times.Once with rod once with MIG but each weld was about 2 foot long.Then they watched me weld.Right off they decided to put me on a stick welder,watched a couple of practice welds and showed me some stuff,and since I could already weld from Ag class in High School it only took them a little while to show me how they wanted it done.Then for a couple days that vet would watch me close when he wasnt watching the other guy.If he saw something he didnt like he would stop me and with lots of cussing and descriptive language tell me why that would cause me to be unemployed,and then I would weld some more.Once that guy was done with me I was sent to the next one.In my case the next one was a fitter.He showed me how to read prints one afternoon.It was harder than welding for me,but still not very hard.He showed me a couple of tricks about measuring and drawing lines and then in about 3 days working with him I went to the next one.He showed me how to fit and weld stuff and measure it,knock it off if it was wrong,do it over.I spent the longest time with that one,maybe 2 weeks,and the last one was a MIG welder.He already would come by and observe me welding and show me stuff when I was working with the others.By the time I got to him I already knew him and he was only a couple years older than me and we got along good.He had me welding with a MIG in about 30 minutes on flat metal.Then after a couple of days with him watching me,I was considered a welder.They put me working with a fitter.A fitter has more responsibility at that shop so he would get chewed out for mistakes,I just being the welder, could go weld something and not get chewed out,unless I made a mistake and had to air arc it out,or somebody elses mistake and have to air arc it out as it came down the line.I worked there from May until October and at the last part of working there I worked in the supply department running a forklift.Other new guys hired after me were being taught how to weld by the same crew.If they need a welder they would come get me at the warehouse and I would weld until they got caught up.I was getting ready to go back to welding because most of the new guys quit after a couple of months.I was a farm kid so they werent worried about me.They knew I could do anything they put me on.I even ran a shear for a half of a day.Training on that was,where is the switch?Oh here it is, turned it on and walked off after showing me a pile of big angle iron he wanted cut into 3 foot long peices.I decided to go to school so I quit and went to school for a while,quit school and went back to welding at a couple of different shops,one was making railroad cars.The last place was a division of the first shop that taught me how to weld and hired me as a welder because I already had taken their OJT training course and they knew I was good.That place made skyscrapers among other things.Other times working there and other places I had to pass an x ray welding test,but not for skyscrapers.The X Ray test was to weld government jobs(bridges) and a nuclear power plant.So for Bridges and power plants yes,skyscrapers no,plus I was a fitter welder.I fit the skyscraper parts, maximum 1/8 inch tolerance, and welded them or we would take turns.One week I would fit and tack and somebody else would weld,next week we traded.They did watch me close for a while,maybe 6 months I worked with different old men that sort of showed me what they wanted,but I could weld good enough that they didnt say much about welding,most of it was fitting,and it was a lot harder than the first place.Also engineers for the whole company were at that place and they would come watch you work sometimes and pick welders they wanted for critical stuff.If they didnt find anybody in the shop they had other outside welders to pick from,who were in a different union.

We did a lot of welding that was critical,just some was more critical than others.The fitting had to be done right in close tolerance on skyscrapers ,1/16 inch was preferred.The new hires worked on roof beams and floor beams until they were satisfied they were good enough to move to more critical welding,or if they couldnt do that they got fired or quit.
I welded roof and floor beams at first but not long,and they moved me to trusses.First I would make a jig working with an old fitter who knew how to do it.That place only had one old man for that.I worked with that old man while I was there, a lot.We made jigs and then built trusses.A couple of times they tried other people,and they had a couple of other crews build jigs and trusses,but most of the time me and the old guy made the trusses.When there werent any trusses to make I spent months welding with a big buzz box burning jet rod or 7018.Maybe fitting once a week,then welding all the rest of the week.
MIG was used a lot on stuff.At times all of the welders were MIG welding on some jobs.Sometimes they hired more welders,usually MIG welders,and they would do a job and once it was done they would fire them before they got in the union.

All of this was back in the 1970s.I really like welding but even after doing all of that and welding 4 years at that kind of welding,I wasnt as good of a welder then as now.I sure learned a lot from all that welding,but I learned a lot more after that, welding truck frames and maintenance on big trucks.I also know there are welders who are better than me at welding.Some of them live in this town.

I dont care what you do,any job that you do,a big part of it is practice.More is a good teacher,but the most of it is wanting to do it.If you dont want to do it then its hard to get it done.Its still not impossible,but it might seem like it at first.

If I had to butt-weld two frame pieces together and could not add any fish-plates, I'd use an high tensile alloy rod just be safe. It's pricey, but I've never had an issue when welding dis-similar ferrous metals.

But, how many truck frames cannot be reinforced with fish-plate? Not many, I suspect.

And never, ever weld the ends of the fish plate.

The heat treated frame that I was referring to that cracked was plated,not bolted,but plated.It cracked right next to the weld and the plate weld broke.There is no telling how many miles it ran before it cracked.I drove it for a year before it broke so thats over 100,000 miles and it pulled a bull rack before I drove it and thats over rough gravel roads a lot of times.Thats all I know about welding that kind of frame is that one broke.Ive driven other trucks that had the frame welded that were road tractors stretched out to make a dump truck and welded with 7018 and they didnt break,or at least none of them have broke yet.Something about vibration might be part of it.Also stuff breaks easier when its cold,it was cold the day that frame broke.

What the heck is a "Fish Plate" Doesn't anybody here know that it's a "Fitch Plate"?